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The Shoot'n War between Samsung and Apple (Read 76 times)
Oldfeller--FSO
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The Shoot'n War between Samsung and Apple
09/25/13 at 06:21:40
 

Jobs is gone now and Apple lost all its recent lawsuits against Samsung concerning look and feel of various products.  

Roll Eyes

Up until today, the two companies still did business together because Samsung had state of the art 20nm lines that were built specifically to support Apple's custom chip designs.    Samsung built a good percentage of Apple's chips for them, and they got along together in a disfunctional family type relationship.

Apple however is escallating the war against Samsung by very publically firing them yesterday.  

"What for", you say, with only mild curiousity.   Why for screwing up the Exynos 5410 Octa and showing "mediocrity in design" says Apple.   Can't trust that Samsung not to screw the pooch again if we let them make our laptop 64 bit chipset.    

BTW, Apple never used the 5410 chipset in anything, nor did they ever plan to.

Apple has made them a good PR move in this that is ringing strongly throughout Apple space, branding Samsung with the mediocrity branding iron and slapping the South Korean giant very publically in the face for an ARM/Samsung early move into Octa space that was done before ARM had finished cooking up the necessary big/Little task switching software and getting it actually into the Android Linux kernel.

And the charge is true, BTW.   Kit Kat (or key lime pie if you prefer) is going to finally release all the code necessary to fully support the big Samsung chipsets (5410 and 5420 although 5410 is likely never going to be able to use the new code because of early version buggy hardware that it was built with).

This ARM development bobble was actually Apple's fault at the root since they were the ones who forced ARM to push out the A53/A57 abruptly a year early, totally disrupting the flow of A7/A15 implementation which should have had an extra year to phase in, but didn't get that year.  

Apple's pressure (they own 33% of ARM after all) also resulted in the exit of several smaller ARM vendors who threw in their towels at the money and time that was going to be required to keep up with this abrupt jump step.

HOWEVER, it is all done now.  Samsung was the ARM partner on Octa core implementation and it was Samsung's choice to push out the 5410 as soon as they could to re-coop some of that development money and "be the first one".  

Samsung has paid millions in lost sales for that bad decision and will pay out technically hundreds of millions for the whole lost Apple production season that Apple just yanked.   Samsung has lost face, too -- big time.  And to Samsung, that hurts worse than the money.

Jumping the gun is VERY VERY costly in phone space ....

So, what has Apple actually done?   Their disfunctional relationship with Samsung has escallated into a Hatfield / McCoy level of abrupt rifle fire.  Samsung is sitting on 20nm production lines with nothing to do on them.  

Samsung is moving their own 64 bit chipset into production just as soon as the ARM hard macro design gets finalized  (and ARM had better not frick it up in any of the fine details as they are the ones who GUARANTEE that design to work as stated).

ARM is getting TONS of heat from all their partners right now, all of who know the true story behind the jump step into A53-A57 and the 5410 debacle and all of whom are clamoring to go 64 bit right now because of Intel's Bay Trail and the well known way the final end customers react to a 32-64 bit change over period.  

Look to see a lot of ARM 64 bit hard macro designs pop out next year as it is all the little guys can get done that fast (and after Samsung's burn job, they sorta want that ARM hard macro Guarantee to back their play).

Linaro and the Linux kernel guys state that the software "state of the art" that has been developed is in the kernel right now.   Google is releasing it with Kit Kat.   This is true, but it doesn't mean anything but what it says.

If there was ever a big bobble opportunity time for Intel to get back in the game, it happens early next year --- IF somebody leaves something out (or even just lacking a bit) in the first 64 bit ARM implementation wave then Intel will be there to pick up the fumbled ball.

The odds of ARM and its partners getting everything "stone perfect" on a one year too early 64 bit rush job that Apple has handed them is a bit of a stretch job.  

Remember, Samsung put out the 5410 at the state of the art at the time they put it out there -- the hard fact was that the state of the art from ARM simply wasn't cooked fully yet and the chip did NOT perform as expected by customers or as advertised by ARM (or Samsung).   ARM had a channel switching bug that dumped the cache at a big/LITTLE change over -- and this bug was hard wired into the 5410's hardware, not the software.   This was ARM's error.

5410 was a flop
when the bug went public, and every smaller vendor who had tried to use it took it in the throat.   ARM defends themselves by saying it did what they said it would do at the time (and this is mostly true) and if folks applied the claims for the full implementation to that early on 5410 implementation that isn't ARM's fault (yes it is, you were stupid to let Samsung go forward with a early form of big/Little task switching -- you sold them the design and the software to do that, dammit.   And you were the one who foolishly advertised/touted the full end result levels, not the first interim step where you were at in reality.  And that switching bug was in ARM's hardware design, not the software.   The 5410's switching bug can't be fixed by a software update .....)

Samsung is a prideful South Korean company -- right now they are like a tiger that has been slapped in the face by a porcupine's back and forth slap.  

They have lots of 20nm production capacity now all of a sudden and when ARM comes through with a hard macro that suits their lines perfectly and has been run tested on their lines with a full production run and is COMPLETELY UNDERSTOOD then advertising claims that match that reality EXACTLY will be dispersed to match what the really IS right now.  

Trusting a 33% Apple owned (and actively manipulated in the past by Apple) company called ARM Holding, Inc.  to give you a totally flaw free design isn't going to be that easy out into the future.  Samsung isn't going to be caught out again by that mistake, and will only produce what ARM totally guarantees will work perfectly (and what they have tested out on their own production lines).

ARM owes Samsung bigtime for this past frick up, so I suspect you will see Samsung be given the very best of 64 bit ARM core designs, including the very best Mali graphics cores and the largest internal cache memories, battery management, etc.    

ARM has got to redeem itself.   This means NOT ALLOWING Apple to influence them again, ever, and never releasing stuff that isn't full cooked, fully softwared and fully tested.

Samsung will fire the big/little 8 core big cannon again this spring, in ANGER this time, fully intending to blow Apple completely out of the water.    "Enraged tiger" mode is good motivation for abrupt progress, after all.

ARM's very best designs are going up against Apple's designs and Qualcomm's best designs head to head, with power, battery life and functional graphics and overall everything.  

It is throw down time again in phone/tablet space.

Intel is out there now, waiting for the ball to be dropped by any of the 3 parties.   Intel is back to their habit of following up close behind Apple's curly tail,  sniffing at Apple's tablet and laptop processor business as Apple has no big chip in the pipeline to do that business after next year, especially since they have started up a face slapping rifle shootin'  feud with Samsung.


Wink     Man, this stuff MOVES fast, don't it?    Somewhat entertaining, yup, that it is ....
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« Last Edit: 09/25/13 at 08:04:10 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: The Flame War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #1 - 09/25/13 at 07:04:10
 
Nice write up.

I'm still stuck in desktop mode ( and my netbook) so all the ARM stuff, wont mean much till it reaches me. Ha.. I don't even have a smart phone.

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Re: The Shoot'n War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #2 - 09/25/13 at 07:38:52
 

Wait a bit until the 64 bit wave hits its second year .....   some little something is still out there to go wrong with that first pass on the 64 bit changeover.  

It will take at least an extra year for the cheapie guys to make the switch over, you can count on that being true for any change just about.

There is going to be a LOT of progress very quickly -- and Intel will be a player in that post 64 bit world although their leasurely 1 year tick -- tock is likely going to have to shift forward into tick tick tick speed to keep up.

"Sea of cores" comes in with A53/A57.   Odd mixes of 4 littles and 1 big become totally possible, which would support cell phone energy use better while other mixes of cores would suit tablets better.   AMD with their 8 bigs and one little for server card uses is kinda neat too ....

Laptops, heck fire,  they maybe headed for the netbook bone yard as the new tablet OSs come into play.    A light 20" tablet with a keyboard cover looks like a right good laptop replacment anyway.

PCs are pretty much totally past tense even now .....   the 20" tablet with keyboard cover will do for them right smartly as well.   The PC will exist, but only until the existing units finally age out.

Sales right now are very strongly skewed to "tablets and phones" now, with this being seen as a world wide change.


=========================


What evidence for this shift exists in "other associated industries" ???

See HP and all the printer manufacturers suddenly forming a consortium group to support wireless printing standards for Android Devices ....

Also remember that little super thin Seagate 500 gigabyte tablet hard drive I showed you last week?

And Valve/Steam going Linux with their own branded OS is kinda a sign as well.

Replacement monitor sales are really really flat right now -- if you want a HDMI monitor you can buy a 22" TV with a HDMI input a lot cheaper than a HDMI monitor.

Folks who plan to exist in 3 years are starting to MOVE now ....

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Re: The Flame War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #3 - 09/25/13 at 09:00:20
 
Pine wrote on 09/25/13 at 07:04:10:
Nice write up.

I'm still stuck in desktop mode ( and my netbook) so all the ARM stuff, wont mean much till it reaches me. Ha.. I don't even have a smart phone.


I am the same, only I don't have a netbook.
My youngest son works in the cell phone department in a tech store and we talk about all the new developments.
To my way of thinking, something that does many things adiquately does not do anything really well. If I want to take a pic I will use one of my 7 cameras. If I phone someone I prefer a landline, because they have better sound quality. If I need a calculator, I use a calculator. The buttons are bigger, the display is bigger, and the calculator has more functions. Why text if you can talk? When you talk to someone you hear voice inflections. If I need to use the internet, I use my computer.
If I want to listen to music I use my stereo-(I prefer LPs). I can't stomach the compressed crap that you hear on a phone. I can barley put up with the lossless  storage on my Ipod. When I bought my car it hat satellite radio in it and it sounded so bad I paid to have it taken out.
If I need a calendar I use a calendar. If I need to know what time it is I use my watch.
That said, I do have a cell phone because as a supply teacher I get called for jobs by a computer, and can get a call anywhere. I very rarely make outgoing calls on it, and intend to "modify" it with a large hammer when I retire. Wink
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Re: The Flame War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #4 - 09/25/13 at 20:44:22
 
arteacher wrote on 09/25/13 at 09:00:20:
Pine wrote on 09/25/13 at 07:04:10:
Nice write up.

I'm still stuck in desktop mode ( and my netbook) so all the ARM stuff, wont mean much till it reaches me. Ha.. I don't even have a smart phone.


I am the same, only I don't have a netbook.
My youngest son works in the cell phone department in a tech store and we talk about all the new developments.
To my way of thinking, something that does many things adiquately does not do anything really well. If I want to take a pic I will use one of my 7 cameras. If I phone someone I prefer a landline, because they have better sound quality. If I need a calculator, I use a calculator. The buttons are bigger, the display is bigger, and the calculator has more functions. Why text if you can talk? When you talk to someone you hear voice inflections. If I need to use the internet, I use my computer.
If I want to listen to music I use my stereo-(I prefer LPs). I can't stomach the compressed crap that you hear on a phone. I can barley put up with the lossless  storage on my Ipod. When I bought my car it hat satellite radio in it and it sounded so bad I paid to have it taken out.
If I need a calendar I use a calendar. If I need to know what time it is I use my watch.
That said, I do have a cell phone because as a supply teacher I get called for jobs by a computer, and can get a call anywhere. I very rarely make outgoing calls on it, and intend to "modify" it with a large hammer when I retire. Wink


I am heading back in that same direction.
My cell phone contract is up very shortly and when that happens I'm pulling the plug on the smart phone and getting a BASIC cell phone...no extra anything.  I'm tired of $160/mo bills for our 2 phones.  I'm looking for $50-60 max.

Has anyone else ever added up all the little taxes and fees on your phone bills ?  I did on mine some time back and it was over 40% of the total bill.  How crazy is that ?????????
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Re: The Shoot'n War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #5 - 09/25/13 at 20:50:13
 
I want a plain old phone circa 2002/2003, at the newest. No text, no camera, no b.s.

And we went and bought a few more mid 1920s to late 1930s records Sunday. 78rpm for the wind up phonographs, our friend Doug has four, we have 2, but one only plays cylinders.  Angry

I guess $1.50/record is fair... one was worth a few hundred on the collector scene, but it will be kept and played.
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Re: The Shoot'n War between Samsung and Apple
Reply #6 - 09/27/13 at 07:33:54
 

What do I miss about old Simbian OS feature phones?     I used to have to charge my last Simbian feature phone no more than once every week or so.   When I wasn't getting a call or making a call, it used practically no energy at all as it shut down pretty much completely.  

Now I have to plug the Galaxy SIII up every single day to stay over the 50% charge level ....   It isn't really that hard as you can plug up in the car or at your desk, but you still have to go do it.   Every day ....

Could I go back to a dumb phone?   Honestly, no -- I watch movies and play games on my phone while sitting in my car waiting for the next unlock at work.   I read posts and sometimes talk in a short reply to a RSD question.  Having a PC in your pocket is jest too too easy to get used to if you actually go use any of the modern smartphone features ..... and not having it would be a hole in my life.

Wink


===========================





http://liliputing.com/2013/09/zte-sells-100000-firefox-os-phones-new-model-co...

Folks in the USA like you guys are buying these new Firefox phones off of Ebay as they are more of a "minimalist" smartphone OS -- they are light and cheap but they can still get you on the web to follow a web page or make a post or watch a movie.   The battery will last a little longer than my Galaxy, but still you have to charge them every other day.

Since it was introduced (in another country, Spain) ZTE phones have sold 2 each of their 50,000 phone run lots through Ebay here into the USA where folks have to carry it into their local carrier's support store and hassel with the folks to get it put on their network.

After 100,000 ZTE's showed up at their help desks inside a month, AT&T and Verizon have each said "WTF !!!   This little piece of shite sells for less than our cheapest old feature phone and it will still get you on the web .... "

Look for the ZTE and other brands of Firefox phones to show up at your local phone store soon as a low end alternative to a dumb phone.

Nothing breeds success like success.
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