SuzukiSavage.com - Harley question

oldNslow

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Harley question
07/05/13 at 05:42:23

I've always been curious why Harley Davidsons seem to generate such strong opinions pro and con compared to other brands. I rarley ever hear anyone say "All Ducatis( or Triumphs, or Suzukis or ...etc) suck! Or "I'd never ride anything but a .. (insert whatever brand pops into your head)."

I hear comments like this regarding Harleys all the time. Sometimes from people who I'm pretty sure have never even ridden, much less owned one.

My own Harley experience consists of a few short rides on a couple of Sportsters quite a few years ago, and sitting on some bikes in showrooms. Most of them are too big and heavy for my taste but I certainly don't hate them with the passion that some folks seem too. In fact I think the new sportster seventy two is pretty cool, although with that 2 gallon peanut tank it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a practical motorcycle. I do know a couple of guys who own Harleys - a softail custom and a dyna fat bob, and they like them just fine.

So what's the deal? Are Harleys, and by extension Harley riders, judged by a different set of standards than other bikes?

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apache snow-FSO

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Re: Harley question
Reply #1 - 07/05/13 at 06:09:40

I never knock someone elses ride. I'm glad for anyone riding on two wheels no matter what the brand.

I sometimes think that by running down someone's bike in their mind they make their own bike seem better. Huh

I rode Harleys for years. I have owned many Hondas and Triumphs but the Harleys were my all time favorites.

The Harley riders around here are always out riding. They ride rain or shine and ride longer and farther than most other riders. I see more of them than any other type bikes.

I am old now and the little Suzuki S40 works OK for me. Its a cruiser style bike and vibrates just enough to remind me of some of my old bikes. But I have done all I wanted to do and have nothing to prove to anyone. Wink

If you feel the need to run down another bike to make yourself feel better about the bike you have, just maybe you need to get a bike that does it all for you so you don't feel so inadequate. Shocked

just my humble opinion. Cool

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Pine

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Re: Harley question
Reply #2 - 07/05/13 at 06:23:23

I don't "hate" HD's, I have frustration with the same trend that you see. Others having very strong opinions about the bike.

My general thoughts on the HD:
An 883 Sportster isn't too expensive... all the rest are.
Insurance is much higher on them.
Before they were bought up, by AMF/VOIT, I had a very low opinion of their build quality compared to most jap bikes.
After they were bought up (same happened to many brands like Black and Decker)...Quality did not improve. But they had enough clout to get protective tariffs against import bikes. This made me angry at their brand.
Even that was not enough to save them, so employees bought the company.. I assume they still own it. And Quality markedly improved.

Basically, most of my life, I have considered HD inferior to import ( jap) bikes, and now (meaning last 10 years) that they are "as good", I still feel little love for something that got(gets?) preferential treatment, in terms of tariffs. Its also why at 650cc... the little thumper gets by without the tariff.

Just to be fair... other brands that were destroyed by the 80's have not faired as well... and its sad. So kudos to the employees that were able to salvage HD.

PS: on further fact checking the tariff was to last 5 years, but only lasted 4 as HD asked that the tariff be ended. So the Tarriff ended in 1987. I think I am a little behind the times on this "feeling" I have. Sad

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« Last Edit: 07/05/13 at 07:58:44 by Pine »

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mpescatori

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Re: Harley question
Reply #3 - 07/05/13 at 06:31:25

" I rarley ever hear anyone say "All Ducatis( or Triumphs, or Suzukis or ...etc) suck!"

That's because you don't live in Europe.

In Italy, often depending on ... latitude (remember, Italy is long and narrow, "North" and "South" have a much sharper connotation than in the US) you will hear comments on
- Ducatis (racing tractors),
- Guzzis (bilge pumps... where have I heard that one before?)
- Benellis (poor man's Honda)
- Aprilia (rich man's Ducati) and lately,
even MVAgusta (Ground Control to Major Tom... take your protein pills and put your helmet on...)

The race to belittle japanese brands has been going on since the early '70s, when Kawasaki or Suzuki 2stroke triples would burn away Guzzis or Laverdas at the lights... only to be sent back to square 1 on the twisties...

LAVERDA 750 SF with 4-shoe drum brake

BENELLI 650 TORNADO

MOTO GUZZI V7 SPORT

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apache snow-FSO

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Re: Harley question
Reply #4 - 07/05/13 at 06:35:29

One of the reasons for the tariff was Honda was dumping bikes in the US at below what they were selling for in Japan. They has an unfair advantage by doing this.

Also in the 30s when Harley was trying to sell their bikes in Japan the Japanese government put very high tariff on Harleys motorcycles coming into their country. What goes around comes around.

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Jiggyfly

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Re: Harley question
Reply #5 - 07/05/13 at 07:11:29

I call it "brand affliction".

Go to the racetrack......you'll see all kinds of it.
Besides Harley, I think the next most strongly afflicted brand is Yamaha.
I know people that still race Yamaha FZR400's against the clearly superior Suzuki SV650's because they'll never switch brands.

I've had
Honda
Yamaha
Suzuki
Kawasaki
Buell
Harley
Ducati
Aprilia

And I like the one I'm on, at that moment!
Although Harley riders seem to buy into a "lifestyle" more than a "motorcycle". I don't get it. I own nothing that has a motorcycle brand on it. No hats, tshirts, socks, boxers......nothing.
I will admit the Italian bikes tickle my senses more than most. The Harley's are very good at what they do.

With that said, Harley comparisons & questions on this forum are very high! Wink

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MMRanch

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Re: Harley question
Reply #6 - 07/05/13 at 07:39:45

Good question OldNslow !

I rode with a small group (Harleys and Vlucans) for a while and the first couple rides I brought my 1200 sportster. One day we were planning a ride to "Fall-Creek-Falls" a twistie area so I showed up on my S-40. The first coment I got was "Why ??? did you bring THAT !!!" ... Well my reply was "If you havn't seen why by the end of the day I'll tell ya !" Grin

, The noise from scraping foot pegs behind me was affull for the rest of the trip , but nobody in the group had any negitave coments about the little S-40 anymore. Rule was(is) "You doin't pass the "Road-Captain""" so I spent a lot of time slowing down on the straits and speeding-up for the corners Grin

and I really enjoyed the trip every twistie in in. Wink

.

Yea I know : The things we do for fun ! Grin

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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12673 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Harley question Reply #7 - 07/05/13 at 07:47:03 I LOVE Hurleys ..... right tasty, they are. .... what flavor is your new one ??
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WD

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Re: Harley question
Reply #8 - 07/05/13 at 08:08:39

I've had a lot of Harley Davidsons, liked some, hated some. Based on the bikes I've owned/ridden, Big Twins 1964 and older are good, 65-69 are tolerable, 70 and newer I wouldn't have another unless it was given to me (exceptions for FXSTS and Heritage Springer). Piglets: I love the old K Model flattie, right side shift Ironheads are alright, left side shift Ironheads tend to fall apart if you look at them wrong, the Evo version is just boring. My first bike was a highly modified 1936 EL chopper, might have something to do with it... as would my last Evo BT that ate 4 engines and 6 transmissions in 6 months (all under warranty, factory had a run of substandard bearings in 93).

I actually like the 72, would likely get one if it was made in black where it is currently chromed. Like the 48, but it needs a sprung solo and a rigid frame (desperately).

Local dealer just took in a Heritage Springer in trade, I'd bring it home in a heartbeat, add a weld on rigid tail section and hinged rear fender, but I'm NOT paying $14K for a USED motorcycle. They do have a 65 Electra-glide, but all I'd want is the engine, can't stand the mushy feel of the Duo-Glide chassis...

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oldNslow

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Re: Harley question
Reply #9 - 07/05/13 at 08:59:55

WD wrote:

Quote:

I actually like the 72, would likely get one if it was made in black where it is currently chromed

I'm a sucker for chrome. And that red metalflake paint. With the mini apes and mid controls the 72 is the most comfortable Harley I've ever sat on. And it wouldn't look right with a bigger tank. But 2 gallons on a bike that gets what? 35-40? Well, life is full of compromises. If'n I had the money......

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WD

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Re: Harley question
Reply #10 - 07/05/13 at 09:18:34

My Savage has 15s, floorboards now, and gets all of 36mpg, with a 2 or 2.25 gallon tank. Getting ready to black out the engine, sick of the Chevy red-orange it has worn for 12-14 years (can't remember if the engine got sprayed in 99, 00, 01). It does wear some chrome, but only because I didn't feel like buying a box of black fender trim, or dechroming a few items (which has changed, battery box and a bunch of other stuff is getting painted) before spraying.

Test sat a really nice cobalt and pewter Softail standard (21" front wheel, fat bob rear fender), but, it needs apes and a full rear fender to go in my stable... and the dealership isn't willing to do the swaps to seal the deal, soooooo.... it can go to somebody else.

There are more used motorcycles of all eras and styles out there right now than there are butts to fill the seats. I'm just waiting for the right deal on the right fit to come along.

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Re: Harley question
Reply #11 - 07/05/13 at 09:35:01

I think the problem has to do with Harley's marketing...
They make a conscious choice to sell to several niche markets...
Putting themselves in a separate market than other motorcycles... (they have to,... because they aren't really competitive otherwise)...

They have the these markets cornered...
-Patriot/ thugs (Buy American)... which created with the anti-riceburner sentiment...
-Rich yuppie snob, wannabees... the couture fashion riders...(who have turned Harley dealerships into salons)...
-women,... often not very experienced, and looking to prove something...

I know it sounds mean to say,... but it is a reality... and it is something Harley directly pursues...

That said,... there are a lot of good people that ride Harely's...
... but, there are a lot of rude, snobbish, posers, too...

Bike development is restricted by Harley's catering to these niche markets... (they wouldn't think of making "small" bike,... they have to encourage loud, even though they are limited by EPA... they must sell their branded accessories...
...(they even sell cologne's and perfumes, for god sake)...
... and they must overcharge in order to make themselves an elitist brand... the snob factor...

It all adds up to a clientele that is encouraged by product loyalty to snub other riders....
Everybody knows that ain't all Harley riders... but, it is a catered to segment...

If you are honest about it,... Harley's are nothing special...
They aren't very reliable,... they're overpriced, they're technically inferior, and not fast, powerful, or good handling...
... and I kinda' like Sportsters... just not the social baggage they carry with them....
Huh

...
... and I'm gonna' catch he!! for saying this... Grin

...

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...

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apache snow-FSO

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Re: Harley question
Reply #12 - 07/05/13 at 09:53:05

I don't know. I was just a poor country boy in 1960 when I rode my first Harley. I believe it was a 1952 FL model with a foot clutch and hand shift. I loved that bike for what it was. I liked the low RPM torque and pulling power. I was never into racing. Thats not what I rode motorcycles for.

I have had several Harleys all big ones. i have never ridden a Sportster. They were all reliable and none of them ever let me down.

I liked cruising on them as they could eat up the miles. One of my buddies(he died two years ago) Rode a Harley Road King with his wife from Tennessee to California and back. Said he had a blast.

But in the early 70s, a guy who just moved here from calif. left his Honda CB 350 back there. He flew out there and rode the 350 back to Tennessee. I aways though he was either tough or crazy. Huh

By the way, Its the Harley riders who wave to me way more than the crotch rocket riders.

I like them for what they are not some life style. If I wasn't geezer status I would have one right now.

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oldNslow

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Re: Harley question
Reply #13 - 07/05/13 at 11:05:57

Quote:

think the problem has to do with Harley's marketing...
They make a conscious choice to sell to several niche markets...
Putting themselves in a separate market than other motorcycles... (they have to,... because they aren't really competitive otherwise)...

They have the these markets cornered...
-Patriot/ thugs (Buy American)... which created with the anti-riceburner sentiment...
-Rich yuppie snob, wannabees... the couture fashion riders...(who have turned Harley dealerships into salons)...
-women,... often not very experienced, and looking to prove something...

I know it sounds mean to say,... but it is a reality... and it is something Harley directly pursues...

As a marketing strategy it works pretty well. They sell an awful lot of bikes in my neck of the woods - high prices and all.

One thing I've always respected about HD is the company's commitment to flat track racing. You could be cynical and say that they don't make a bike that is suitable for anything else - which is true - but they have put a lot of money into that particular type of racing for a long time. Maybe even kept it alive on a national level. A mile flatrack race is pretty spectacular to watch. And an XR with lights on it would be one hell of a cruiser.

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apache snow-FSO Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 509 Gender:	Re: Harley question Reply #14 - 07/05/13 at 11:11:43 I love flat track racing (as a spectator) I used to go to Louisville downs KY to watch the camel pro series every year. They only had a half mile track but it was exciting. Its a shame they don't race motorcycles at Louisville downs any more. They had speedway racing close to where I live in the 70s-80s. I always liked that as well.
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