SuzukiSavage.com - Octane Question.

apache snow-FSO Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 509 Gender:	Re: Octane Question. Reply #15 - 06/30/13 at 16:46:34 New Zealand uses the RON method while The US uses AKI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #16 - 06/30/13 at 16:58:53

apache snow-FSO wrote on 06/30/13 at 16:46:34:

New Zealand uses the RON method while The US uses AKI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

United States: in the US octane rating is displayed in AKI. In the Rocky Mountain (high elevation) states, 85 AKI (90 RON) is the minimum octane, and 91 AKI (95 RON) is the maximum octane available in fuel.

I just copied and pasted this from the article apache snow posted above.
Is 91 AKI really your highest Octane?

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paulmarshall Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1268 Carterton,New Zealand Gender:	Re: Octane Question. Reply #17 - 06/30/13 at 17:00:32 So our 98 RON would be 94 AKI if you guys had it?
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apache snow-FSO Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 509 Gender:	Re: Octane Question. Reply #18 - 06/30/13 at 17:36:39 We have 93 in a lot of places.
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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #19 - 06/30/13 at 17:36:45

gerald.hughes wrote on 06/30/13 at 11:15:32:

Gyrobob,

I am a little confused. Could you please explain the difference to me between, "retard ignition", and "makes the mixture less susceptible to detonation."?

Retards ignition = starts the burning later

Making it less susceptible to detonation = once it starts burning, it will not be so prone to exploding (detonating).

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #20 - 06/30/13 at 18:10:59

Premium doesn't burn any slower than regular. This is an old wives' tales spread by the likes of wikianswers, cha cha, ask Jeeves, yahoo answers, most auto and cycle and boat forums, etc.

Premium is less susceptible to detonation because of octane additives,.. it has nothing to do with burn rate.

For one thing the burn rate of all the fuels available to Savage riders is for all practical purposes, identical. If there is a diff, it would be measured in nanoseconds,.. nothing we would ever notice.

If you research what is said by engineers, rather than folks like us blathering about on forums, you'll find statements like this from Jim Wurth from Sunoco Race Fuels. He explains, "A perfect example is Sunoco Maximal, which is our fastest burning fuel, and one of Sunoco's highest octane fuels at 116 (R+M)/2. A lot of Pro Stock teams rely on Maximal for those sub-seven second runs. When they are turning 9,000 rpm or more, the fuel has to burn pretty quickly to achieve complete combustion."

The old saw about premium burning slower is one of those "everyone knows" kinds of things, such as in the 1500s "everyone knows the earth is flat" or today, "Everyone knows whole grains are healthy."

That said,... it is mostly irrelevant.

In any event, here is what matters to us:
-- 87 octane is marvy in a stock Savage running properly.
-- using more than 87 in a stock Savage running properly is a waste of money.
-- using more than 87 in a stock Savage running properly won't hurt the motorcycle any, just your wallet.
-- using more than 87 in a stock Savage running properly will not cause any increase in performance or do anything better for the motor. If there is any change at all (unlikely), it will be a decrease in performance.
-- if you increase the compression ratio or advance the timing or both, use the highest octane you can get.

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apache snow-FSO

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #21 - 06/30/13 at 18:44:50

I havn't done much reaserch on the burn rates of different octanes and probably won't as I am well aware of what to run in my motorcycle and automobiles but your perfect example of a 116 octane race fuel designed to run in a 7 second prostock being compared to regular every day 87 federal spec octane fuel is a bit of a streatch. Huh

Burn rate of pump automotive gasoline is regulated by US govt and standardised pretty much across the board. High octane simply has a higher resistance to spontaneous combustion than regular gasoline has.

Later on in the same article he said this..

What is it that makes race gas so different? What's it made of? Sunoco tells us their GT PLUS 104 octane unleaded race gas is only 15-20 percent traditional gasoline, and about 85 percent additives! Actually there are about 120 different chemicals in GT PLUS. One reason it isn't street legal is the high oxygen content. The EPA requires that the oxygen content of a street legal fuel cannot exceed 2.9 percent. GT PLUS is about 3.5 percent oxygen. This fuel is light in weight at only 6.14 lbs-per-gallon. The high oxygen content improves the octane, and when the induction system is properly calibrated, this fuel will help make additional horsepower. The high oxygen content has a supercharging effect, since 3.5 percent oxygen is the equivalent to about 17 percent more air. Different fuels can actually alter horsepower 5-to-10 percent or more.

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #22 - 06/30/13 at 18:52:37

Gyrobob wrote on 06/30/13 at 18:10:59:

He explains, "A perfect example is Sunoco Maximal, which is our fastest burning fuel, and one of Sunoco's highest octane fuels at 116 (R+M)/2. A lot of Pro Stock teams rely on Maximal for those sub-seven second runs. When they are turning 9,000 rpm or more, the fuel has to burn pretty quickly to achieve complete combustion."

That's funny... my Ninja redllined at 11,000+rpm, and it ran fine on regular gas...
Undecided

...

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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh

...

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Gyrobob

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #23 - 06/30/13 at 19:30:16

Be that as it may, burn rate diff (be it faster or slower) between premium and regular is so small, it is a non-issue for Savage folks bandying about on stock Savages.

For a stock Savage motor running properly, anything other than 87 is a waste of money because it will make no difference in performance, temp, mileage, power, longevity, sound, smoothness, smell, or handsomeness. The only actual difference it would make is having less money to spend on yourself (or your current wife) after each gas purchase.

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Gyrobob

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #24 - 06/30/13 at 19:34:02

Serowbot wrote on 06/30/13 at 18:52:37:

Gyrobob wrote on 06/30/13 at 18:10:59:

He explains, "A perfect example is Sunoco Maximal, which is our fastest burning fuel, and one of Sunoco's highest octane fuels at 116 (R+M)/2. A lot of Pro Stock teams rely on Maximal for those sub-seven second runs. When they are turning 9,000 rpm or more, the fuel has to burn pretty quickly to achieve complete combustion."

That's funny... my Ninja redllined at 11,000+rpm, and it ran fine on regular gas...
Undecided

...

Your ninja had quite a different set of operating conditions than a 2,000hp 6.9 second pro stock vehicle. the situations are not analogous

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #25 - 06/30/13 at 19:37:16

apache snow-FSO wrote on 06/30/13 at 18:44:50:

.... but your perfect example of a 116 octane race fuel designed to run in a 7 second prostock being compared to regular every day 87 federal spec octane fuel is a bit of a streatch. Huh

"

Not a "streatch" at all. The only point being made is that octane, and therefore detonation suppression, has nothing at all to do with burn rate,... which, for the fuels available to us,... is pretty much irrelevant since the burn rates are all the same.

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apache snow-FSO Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 509 Gender:	Re: Octane Question. Reply #26 - 06/30/13 at 19:41:12 No the fuel you used as an example is designed with a much faster burn rate for racing applications than is allowed in federal spec fuel and has nothing to do with our motorcycles. I understand the burn rates of pump gas and what gives it its resistance to knock.
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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #27 - 06/30/13 at 21:05:08

Paul Marshall, the same thing about avgas that applies in the States applies here. You would need to be friendly with a pilot, or join a motorcycle club to get avgas. As far as I'm aware the stuff is low lead petrol of 100 to 110 octane and don't ask me if it's RON, MON, AKI or a combo, it's what is also called race gas here. 95 or 98 pump petrol, which aviators call MOGAS should be ok for you.

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #28 - 06/30/13 at 21:17:54

jcstokes wrote on 06/30/13 at 21:05:08:

Paul Marshall, the same thing about avgas that applies in the States applies here. You would need to be friendly with a pilot, or join a motorcycle club to get avgas. As far as I'm aware the stuff is low lead petrol of 100 to 110 octane and don't ask me if it's RON, MON, AKI or a combo, it's what is also called race gas here. 95 or 98 pump petrol, which aviators call MOGAS should be ok for you.

Cheers for that.

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Re: Octane Question.
Reply #29 - 07/01/13 at 07:22:54

apache snow-FSO wrote on 06/30/13 at 19:41:12:

No the fuel you used as an example is designed with a much faster burn rate for racing applications than is allowed in federal spec fuel and has nothing to do with our motorcycles. I understand the burn rates of pump gas and what gives it its resistance to knock.

Precisely the point. Burn rate (and the infinitesimally small differences of various grades therein) has nothing to do with our motorcycles.

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