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Oil in NZ (Read 384 times)
savagebob
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #15 - 09/29/13 at 16:56:56
 
I can only find: Penrite MC-4ST 5W-50 Full Synthetic Oil

Have you guys thought about running Shell Rimula R3 X Engine Oil - 15W-40?

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/online-store/products/Shell-Rimula-R3-X-Engin...
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #16 - 09/29/13 at 19:58:06
 
I have no idea if u can get this in NZ, but Im a fan of AMS oil 10-50 full-syn cycle oil, or LUCAS oil 10-50 full syn cycle oil I noticed an instant difference in the smoothness of my engine and transmission over Motul, and according to my infrared thermometer AMS oil lowered my "HOT" engine temp. by 6 degrees over the Motul 10-40 I used to run... Cool but im from Texas and gets really hot in the summer so I run 10-50 in the summer and 10-40 in cold months... and jcstokes is right abt the zinc but here in America a "Moly" additive is more popular than zinc and is found in many high performance oils...
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #17 - 09/29/13 at 20:55:15
 
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #18 - 09/29/13 at 21:55:58
 
SimeonC wrote on 09/29/13 at 19:58:06:
I have no idea if u can get this in NZ, but Im a fan of AMS oil 10-50 full-syn cycle oil, or LUCAS oil 10-50 full syn cycle oil I noticed an instant difference in the smoothness of my engine and transmission over Motul, and according to my infrared thermometer AMS oil lowered my "HOT" engine temp. by 6 degrees over the Motul 10-40 I used to run... Cool but im from Texas and gets really hot in the summer so I run 10-50 in the summer and 10-40 in cold months... and jcstokes is right abt the zinc but here in America a "Moly" additive is more popular than zinc and is found in many high performance oils...


SimonC, welcome to the churned earth of the Endless Oil War.  

You have accidentally walked out into the churned dirt, smoking craters and torn coils of barbed wire strewn area out between the opposing trenches ---- and I wonder if you have even put your Kevlar undies on because I know you are not wearing a helmet on your head.

The Endless Oil war has some firm rules, one of which is that all statements MUST be backed up by reference links.


This little chunk "but Im a fan of AMS oil 10-50 full-syn cycle oil, or LUCAS oil 10-50 full syn cycle oil I noticed an instant difference in the smoothness of my engine and transmission over Motul, and according to my infrared thermometer AMS oil lowered my "HOT" engine temp. by 6 degrees over the Motul 10-40 I used to run.." refers to personal data that you possess that you didn't share with us.

And this little chunk "and jcstokes is right abt the zinc but here in America a "Moly" additive is more popular than zinc and is found in many high performance oils..." is simply a wrong sort of statement to be using in the World of the Savage Flat Tappet Engine.   It may be true in the context of dry clutch, separate sump, roller tappet performance car engines but it DOES NOT APPLY TO THE WET SUMP FLAT TAPPET SAVAGE ENGINE and so is very very misleading to a newperson reading an oil thread who is trying to find an oil for his Savage.

It is very dangerous to quote generic "car stuff" in a specific motorcycle oil war, especially if the motorcycle in question has an antique flat tappet valve actuation system that requires the use of antique additives that catalytic converters and oxygen sensors hate (and the government is making oil makers cut down to rediculously small levels).

And this oil war is VERY VERY specific because these guys all live in Zena The Warrior Princess Land (very pretty forests, mountains and coastline areas, best in the world to some folks eyes) where their "EPA" regulations and laws are different and are very strictly inforced.

I try to stay out of New Zealand oil wars mostly, because the precepts of their government and their oil companies are so durn DIFFERENT and their brand choices are so very limited.  

Even their diesel oils are formulated differently to some degree and I always found that they have no equivalent of "Bob Is The Oil Guy" to get any real data from.   I can't find sources for real outside impartial data on the oils they battle over -- so silence is mebbe better from those of us who really don't know enough to help them any.

The title of the thread is a specific title  "Oil in NZ" and it contained enough information for me to know what they were dealing with.

And I can't really help them, other than to feel sympathy as they try to work it out with no sources of information other than their oil makers advertising BS ....

Zena would have used her sharp edged Chakra on the lot of them sorry oil makers, bouncing it from throat to throat in a spray of blood.

"Villians, lying and stealing from the poorest in the land." sez she ....

Cheesy

===============

Wink

Did you know that some areas of New Zealand are so overun with fallow deer, red deer, feral sheep and free roaming feral cattle to the point they are shot freely year round in some areas?  And some ecologically threatened areas where the unique New Zealand flora and fanta are being EATEN into extinction there are actual bounties paid out for shooting feral sheep, deer and cattle?

A New Zealand varmint rifle in .22 centerfire caliber is used for this culling, with neck shots and head shots being the preferred placement.

Their oil situation is about as different as their deer hunting methods are, so watch out for what sort of stuff you "recommend" in a New Zealand type oil war ...
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #19 - 09/30/13 at 02:17:00
 
Executioner, I've gone to the Penrite website to see if they will tell me the ZDDP content, if any, in their "High Zinc" oils. I can't say much about the Shell Rimula. I've tried to get onto the Bob the Oil Guy site but it won't accept me.
Oldfeller, it's mainly possums and rabbits we want to shoot down here, the country is making too much out of Dairy Cows, a reasonable amount out of sheep and a bit out of deer, both farmed and feral.
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #20 - 09/30/13 at 08:14:59
 

You got a guy who has done ~20 "deer shoots" on YouTube where he guides clumsy people to go pop a half dozen little bitty deer and various miscellaneous goats per video while running away from some feral bulls on occasion (his rental .223's & .22/250s would likely just piss the much larger animals off in the short term if he let the tourist shoot at the charging bull with them).

His verbal comments on the game laws and such are informative, and the fact he turns in the ears of the shot animals for the bounty once the tourist leaves is kinda cute too.   He gets upset some when the ears get vaporized by a head shot "Shoot 'em in the neck mate, aim for the neck".

He wastes no meat though, he dresses the little things out on the spot and then makes the grinning tourist carry them home while he totes the rented rifles.   The "Farmed deer" comment rings true as he shows one trophy rack shoot in his montage as well --- with the huge racked deer backed up into a barbed wire corner.


===============


Wow, http://www.youtube.com/user/waikarimoana is up to like over a hundred plus deer/goat/boar shooting/fishing videos now -- I haven't watched him in several years now so I was way way low on his video count.  

Shooting takes place mostly in New Caledonia, but he has some of his video from all over the place in New Zealand.
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« Last Edit: 09/30/13 at 09:38:07 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #21 - 09/30/13 at 11:02:04
 
Since I'm not a hunter I hadn't watched that sort of thing. There is quite an industry in taking tourists hunting and fishing here. Your famous western writer Zane Grey visited many years ago. Back to the thread, I'm hoping to get some reply from the Penrite company regarding the ZDDP content of their product.
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #22 - 10/02/13 at 16:31:02
 
Oldfeller, probably not the best idea to base your opinion on NZ purely from some noddy on youtube. God knows what we'd think of the USA if we did that.  Cheesy

It's true that wild deer, pigs and goats are considered pests here somewhat (not wild sheep and I've never heard of feral cattle) but massive deer culling in the 70's has reduced the deer population to a point where it's not easy to go find them and they're certainly not abundant. Most hunters use .223's or .270s etc. Possums and rabbits on the other hand are everywhere and cleaned up with .22s. and shotguns.

Anyway yes, our oil issues for our Savages are a different game since we have no Walmart and no Rotella.

I think I'm going to run with this stuff:

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=7&id_products=597

"MC4ST 10W-40 is a premium, full synthetic, PAO & Ester SAE 10W-40, SHEAR FREE modern engine oil. It contains an anti-wear package of engine wear protection with *FULL ZINC + (exceeding 1800+ ppm levels) for ultimate engine wear protection. It exceeds the requirements of API SN/CF and JASO MA"

exceeds 1800+ppm should mean no additive is required?
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #23 - 10/03/13 at 19:36:40
 

Yup, if you have 1800 ppm of ZDDP you should be good to go.  Likely this is the case with Penrite, although your advertising that you quoted is very vague about what it actually really states.

ZDDP is zinc and phosphorus in a specifically combined compound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate)  but your stated advertised number that you have been given is for zinc alone.  

If you have a decent ZDDP compound in there you should have some relatively large (nearly equal) phosphorus percentage that is in proportion to that zinc.   If your stuff were right it would be 1800 ppm zinc and roughly 1600-1700 ppm of phosphorus.  (Why different?  Zinc weighs more than phosphorus and everything is calculated off of weight)

People who sell oil with zinc powder mashed up in it wouldn't be selling a proper ZDDP compound, now would they?  

If you read the Wikipedia reference above it sort of tells you how to make the stuff up which has to be done before putting it in the oil.

Normally folks will give you an analytically based number for ZDDP which has a slightly larger zinc number and a nearly matching phosophorus number.


Roll Eyes

Where is Zena's razor edged chakra when I need it ???    ---     your advertising person needs a bit of a neck trim for either not knowing what he is actually trying to say, or else he's being all vague to you again on purpose.    

There are some oil makers out there in the past that added the zinc and the phosphorus numbers together then stated it combined (which gives you about half of real ZDDP compared to what you actually need).   Not saying this is the case this time, but who knows unless you ask?   Stating the ZDDP just off the zinc number of the compound was commonly done in the past, which is likely what Penrite is doing here, just being a little bit lazy in their communications.

The best numbers for the guy to have given you is the analytical PPM of zinc and the analytical PPM of phosphorus and a statement it is in a ZDDP compound.

You see, BITOG's Blackstone Labs (and every other lab) tracks this stuff by spectographic analysis which breaks all compounds down into separate atoms and then simply says you had this much zinc and this much phosphorus .... so getting numbers that you know what they are intended to represent is important.

I remember one instance of one junk off brand oil that showed up in the early American Petroleum Institute testing that the folks put zinc powder and phosphorus powder directly into their Quik Pik special oil (made from 100% specially filtered "recycled" oil no less) -- just very fine flakes of powder that settled out in storeage .....   BITOG reported their oil to be close to the ppms of worn out used oil of each compound, plus it was still containing all the iron and copper wear products commonly seen in well used oil.

To which the idiots responded "We put it in there, did you shake it up good?"   The theory being that zinc and phosphorus would combine into ZDDP naturally, something that was actually thought at one point in time by some folks.   It doesn't work that way, surprise.  

BUT, when you carefully read the labling using full knowledge the guys didn't really lie, they had just stated things selectively and had sneakily put in raw zinc and phosphorus that they thought the labs would find as a raw number after they had atomized the used oil in a spectrometer.


=================


Penrite isn't stupid nor are they low rent, they are just likely giving you an answer to the question they thought you had asked.

As far as the noddy dude seeking tourists to come shoot his "multiplying like jackrabbits" farmed deer actually being a bad representation of reality, yeah I caught that.   He's just advertising his own brand of oil in his own special way.

Right now he likely makes as much money off his Youtube channel hit dollars than he does off his trout guiding business ....

The same 2 rifles do all the shooting and the paths everyone walks down are the same.   And I also get that some of the verbage and deer populations and ear bounty stuff has likely changed since he started up doing these videos (he's certainly gotten older looking in his videos).

However, I also caught that the place is BEAUTIFUL and verdant year in and year out with lots of sorts of green growing things that I have never seen before.  And he has LOTS of deer to shoot, herds of each kind it seems.   BTW, the red deer stags are amazing ....

And yes, I have daydreamed about going to New Zealand on a vacation, but will never be able to do so because of my wonderful government turning me into a pauper in my old age.   Plus I could never make it up those hills any more, my legs are too shot.  

But I can still dream.

And I can go to the NC/Tennesee mountains at least once a year.   I can ride them curvy roads that other people just dream about.
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« Last Edit: 10/04/13 at 06:58:09 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #24 - 10/05/13 at 01:50:01
 
Zn content % mass is 0.168
P content % mass is 0.152
B oontent  % mass is 0.063
Sulphated Ash mass % 1.3
Base Number 9.8

so it would seem that they are adding the P and Zn together to get the 1800ppm? Are you're suggesting that that isn't actually the ZDDP number anyway?
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #25 - 10/05/13 at 03:10:38
 

No, sounds like you got 1680 ppm of zddp the way most folks would state it here in the USA.   This assumes the MASS % test itself and the calculation is the same as PPM (just not divided by a million) which is a whopping big ASSumption I guess we have to make.

This oil is enough for the Savage without needing any bumping at all.

What confuses things is the difference in standards between the countries and the way folks have played "noddy" with the various SAE standard tests and numbers over the years.

Oil guys make oil to pass standards.  Standards keep changing and evolving.   This Penrite guy is telling the truth in his general claims that his stuff exceeds the ZDDP requirements of any of the versions of MA or MA-2.

Since he gave you full specs you can see what he does claim to have in there.  It is enough.   It does not support the 1800 ppm claim he made earlier, but getting him to explain that could give you a headache.  example    http://forum.onlineconversion.com/showthread.php?t=15068

Unless you pay to have a lab analysis done yourself you will never know anything else -- and the sad thing is that some folks like Lucas oil "claim" A but lab testing says their product is "B" their same old substandard oil from the last few years.   These are the guys we watch out for.

Lucas for example has by and large has always met the LEAST interpretation of the LEAST of the JASO specifications and has been bad about keeping track of which rating goes on which bottle which gets which oil poured in it ...  

Yet they spend lots & lots of money claiming to be RACING OIL all over the place but certainly sometimes seem to be pouring car oil into the bottle for their dino motorcycle products anyway  ---  so we don't recommend any Lucas oil products at all for the Savage since they have a bad reputation for not being current/honest/accurate over at BITOG.

Mobil 1 blew up their reputation up about 10 years ago and hasn't gotten it back yet fully, although their current crop of bike oils seem to properly state what is in the bottle.   I think the marketing boys got out of hand (or lazy) at Mobil 1 ten years ago and they needed to be reeled in a bit ....  the damage done to the reputation was lasting though.

That's another reason we like Rotella, they do not dance their oil formulation around at all and they clearly announce their relatively infrequent reformulatons whenever a rare C standard change goes into effect.   They test a standard HDEO product against both diesel standards and against JASO motorcycle standards and we actually go buy the cheap standard gallon diesel bottle at the best price of any of the real motorcycle oils (by about half).  



Penrite has no reputation either way and there isn't any VOA data available on the net at all for the oil you chose.  Sorry, no one has paid to have it tested then posted the results on line.

But it sounds to be a slightly better than Rotella T-6 from what little I have read ...

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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #26 - 10/31/13 at 16:21:02
 
Ok so I've had a TOTAL NIGHTMARE trying to get hold of that oil from Penrite. It looks like the perfect choice for our Savages here in NZ but alas it is not available and Penrite and their NZ suppliers are so bloody useless they cannot seem to organize to send me any.

I feel like I want to boycott Penrite now out of principle that if they are this useless to be unable to send me 4L of oil - how can I expect the product to be any good.  Angry

Looking for a new suggestion please Kiwis??
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #27 - 10/31/13 at 16:43:10
 
This is what I put in the savage, Bel-ray EXL 10w-40 Mineral.
If you look at this
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/
Seems to suggest it has adequate levels of Zinc and Phosporus.  
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #28 - 11/03/13 at 12:59:52
 
I went with Bel-Ray EXP Synthetic Ester 10w-40

I wish I could find out the actual ZDDP or at least the zinc/phosporus ppm. So I could know for sure.. I'm not running any booster.

I actually had an apology from Penrite for being useless and they're sending me some of their new ester synthetic MC 4ST oil free of charge. It looks like an awesome oil for the savage so I'm still looking forward to trying it.
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Re: Oil in NZ
Reply #29 - 11/03/13 at 14:48:47
 
Ya know, yer bike ain't gonna blow up if you can't get close to the proper ppm of z's , so don't fret too badly.

Save wear and tear yes, but totally fail because you are not within 5 ppm, nope, it'll still last you about ten years or more, just keep changing the oil at regular intervals.

Not puttin' a damper on all the great info. just lettin' you know if you do the best you can, you will have a great ride for years!

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