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Cubic Centimeter War Thread! (Read 589 times)
Dave
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Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
06/07/13 at 14:50:34
 
The intent of this post is not to make any enemies or stimulate a hateful conversation......but I have been pondering the question of why a 650 cc single is not a good interstate cruiser and not likely to become one.  Also why we don't see larger single cylinder bikes in production.  I have seen the posts for the 2,000 cc single on YouTube, and I also have been caught up in the need for a little more power and speed from my 650 cc single and have done a bit of work to tweak the available power.  I have also read where people want to get 50 HP from the Savage....and I just don't know how realistic that goal is.  

I believe that at some point the piston speed, length of stoke and bore size becomes counter productive to making horsepower.  As the parts get bigger they can produce nice torque numbers at low rpm - but the parts become too heavy and cumbersome to proivide quick acceleration or spin fast enough to make big HP (torquexrev/time).  I will even go so far to say that our 650 single is too big to make impressive Horsepower numbers even if modified.

Without quoting calculations or bothersome and inconvenient facts.....there has to be a reason that most succesful racing singles have been limited to 450-500cc, that most succesful racing twins have been limited to 750cc.  If bigger were better and faster why wouldn't the racing singles of 800 cc been used?

I am slowly forming the opinion that our Savage is a torque demon that is destined to tease us with quick punch in the backside when you crack the throttle open.....but then falls a bit short of having long legs.  That is OK with me......you don't see Clydesdales running in the derby, you don't see Semi's in Nascar, you don't see Sumo wrestlers running hurdles.  I love my Savage for running around town, hitting the back roads, and I don't have a need for speed.

I know that drag racing motorcycles can have monstrous bore and stokes and make horsepower for a limited amount of time....but I am focused more on production street and road racing bikes, dirt track bikes....bikes that need to have an extended service life measured beyond a few seconds down a quarter mile track.

Just rambling.......Ya'll have a good weekend! Cool        
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #1 - 06/07/13 at 15:11:01
 
For our torque demon to be an interstate champ... Top gear has to be reworked so that cruising speed is at max torque.
Which it may be, but I hover around the max hp mark.   Cool
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #2 - 06/07/13 at 16:19:50
 
I have thought about doing the cam/piston/ bigger carb mods this winter. But I wonder if it will actually increase top speed. Or just add more torque? Or just use more gas?

Or maybe I should just accept that it is what it is...
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #3 - 06/07/13 at 17:00:47
 
Borracho wrote on 06/07/13 at 16:19:50:
I have thought about doing the cam/piston/ bigger carb mods this winter. But I wonder if it will actually increase top speed. Or just add more torque? Or just use more gas?

Or maybe I should just accept that it is what it is...

You would probably be better off with a chain conversion and different ratios. You would loose bottom end torque and gain top speed.
Me, I'me perfectly happy the way it is. I consider the highway performance acceptable.
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #4 - 06/07/13 at 17:03:05
 
If you think about the fastest bikes for any displacement... they seem to have cylinder sizes of 250 to 350cc... 1000 to 1300cc 4cyl... 800 to 1000 triples... 500 to 700 twins,...
I guess that's where the maximum rpm/size/power lines up...
No way, are you going to get a big piston spinning 12,000 rpm's... without something flying off...

I think it's a planet Earth thing... probably different on Mars... Huh...

Life happens too fast nowadays...  I more and more liking thumping along,... harkens back to a simpler time...  clears the mind...
Not that my mind has much in it anyway... Huh...
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #5 - 06/07/13 at 17:11:40
 
I agree- I have had 4 bikes in my life. A '37 Enfield 500 (great bike but would shake your fillings loose), a 50cc bike that was great around town but totally useless past the city limits, a Honda CB750 four, great on the highway but cumbersome in the city,(and a real pregnant dog to tune), and the S40, which straddles the overall performance of the 50 and the 750.
I had the opportunity to drive a friends CBX once and it scarred the poop out of me. Embarrassed
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #6 - 06/07/13 at 21:14:48
 
well as far as singles go, buell blasts produce 34 hp with 500 cc and enfileds are around 27 with 500cc and fuel injection which is about the same as a stock s40.
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #7 - 06/08/13 at 03:16:28
 
IMO a twin makes the most sense. A big single needs some kinda swinging balancer, thats mass that has to spin up, so its gonna rev slower, singles rev slower anyway, a twin can be built to balance out a lot better, no swinging weight, smaller dia/pistons = less weight = less rod stress = lighter rod, all that stuff adds up to quicker revs. Its easier on the motor to rev up than it is that big single.
Now, that whole bore/stroke thing,, hmm,, I guess everyone knows the square bore/stroke thing, oversquare revs fast as heck,,undersquare , long strokes & smaller bores, big torque,, & we are pretty close to square I think,.,.bore almost = stroke on our 650, right?

IDK Why they made it a big single or designed it to operate in that rpm range, but they did.. For my purposes its been a fine bike. Itll scat across town w/o makin the howling "Come get me coppers, Im FLYING!" sounds. If a guy was patient with it & rode it in its comfort zone he could go as far as he wanted to. Its not meant for high speed cruising. It will do 75, but I wouldnt recommend a real steady diet,like tryin to make a 3,000 mile run 5 days. Why does that hurt a motor to run it right near its max? Dang if I know,, just seems to gut them out way too often, I try to not run anything but the lawnmower at more than 80% of its max.,
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #8 - 06/08/13 at 04:27:06
 
Borracho wrote on 06/07/13 at 16:19:50:
I have thought about doing the cam/piston/ bigger carb mods this winter. But I wonder if it will actually increase top speed. Or just add more torque? Or just use more gas?

Or maybe I should just accept that it is what it is...


I did the 95mmWiseco, Stage 1 Cam, Mikuni carb mods...and the bike runs really well and doesn't seem to use more gas.  It does however require the use of premium now.  The ability to cruise at a higher top speed has not changed, and it may not have a higher top speed if the vlave and port size is the weak link in the system.  The bike now has more acceleration than it used to, and it may have a higher top speed......I will probably never know.  
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #9 - 06/08/13 at 05:56:44
 
DR 650 R 1993
Overall Length: 2 385 mm (93.9 in)
Overall Width: 870 mm (34.3 in)
Overall Height: 1 330 mm (52.4 in)
Seat Height: 890 mm (34.8 in)
Wheelbase: 1 505 mm (59.3 in)
Ground Clearance: 245 mm (9.6 in)
Dry weight: 166 kg (365 lbs)
Engine type: Air-cooled 640 cc single cylinder 4-stroke. OHC, SACS. 46 hp (33,6 kW)/ 6.800 rpm, 56,6 Nm (5,77 kg-m)/ 5.000 rpm.


The info above is from Suzukicycles.org
The engine layout of the '90-95 DR650 is pretty much like our LS650 bore/stroke/rpm wise.  The difference lies in the exhaust ports, which are more properly designed, and the camshaft which has a much higher lift & duration than even the Stage 3 camshaft.
The better exhaust ports and the cam profile allow the engine to breath much more efficiently than the LS650, and the result is more torque & hp production.
This is all stock factory stuff.

I personally don't think a few mild/moderate mod's in this direction over-stress the engine at all.  It still operates within the standard rpm range so piston speed is not an issue, and that IS a critical issue.  Engine components seem more than adequate to handle a power increase; the stock DR does so and I've not seen any of it's engine parts being heavier than the LS.

Anyway, the engine responds very well to the mild/moderate mod's of carb, cam, porting, cc & CR, exhaust, etc.  Still in the stock rpm range and the engine is just down right perkier.  It FEELS GOOD and wants to run.


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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #10 - 06/08/13 at 05:59:46
 
LANCER wrote on 06/08/13 at 05:56:44:
Engine type: Air-cooled 640 cc single cylinder 4-stroke. OHC, SACS. 46 hp (33,6 kW)/ 6.800 rpm, 56,6 Nm (5,77 kg-m)/ 5.000 rpm.


The info above is from Suzukicycles.org
The engine layout of the '90-95 DR650 is pretty much like our LS650 bore/stroke/rpm wise.  The difference lies in the exhaust ports, which are more properly designed, and the camshaft which has a much higher lift & duration than even the Stage 3 camshaft.
The better exhaust ports and the cam profile allow the engine to breath much more efficiently than the LS650, and the result is more torque & hp production.
This is all stock factory stuff.



So......when we gonna transplant the DR650 into the Savage frame?
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #11 - 06/08/13 at 06:53:28
 
It's also called the Suzuki "Sausage" for a reason... For what it is, a conglomeration of substandard bits and pieces mixed together in a seemingly random fashion... it's a pretty good mix.

Mine is just about ready for the scrap pile, electrical gremlins and the timing tensioner is about ready to let go. But that's 15 years of being beat on unmercifully. I usually try to have a real bike as my primary, keeping the Savage for what it does best, play b!tch to a better machine. And better is very subjective...

Fast? I've got a high revving warmed up 250 racing twin  I'm overhauling for street duty, and it will handle the roads around here better than the Savage does. Ceriani front and rear suspension, tls drums on both ends (no sudden failure of a crap single piston caliper pushing against an improperly heat treated rotor).

Touring? I had a GS750T with a Windjammer fairing equipped with a cigarette lighter...

General purpose? Had a 1999 VN800A with full rear fender conversion that looked better, was a LOT faster, better seat, better brakes, bigger gas tank, 50+ hp at the rear wheel (heavily modified)... Had a stock 2005 VN800B (Classic) that was such a p.o.s. it makes a stock Savage seem like a Cadillac (or better yet, a real LaSalle or a high end Packard)...

Offroad? Yamaha XT500 and the racing spec Honda CL72 250 Scrambler turned TT bike. I'll take the Savage offroad, but it doesn't much care for it...

The Savage is a great commuter bike. Set of small saddlebags, better seat and the proper handlebars turns it into a perfect utility bike. But, for all intents and purposes, it's an antique with a later ignition swapped in. Suzuki would have been doing all of us a great service by running a 1960s Honda style cam in real bearings... more aggressive profile and no chance of tearing up the head section castings due to the inferior oiling system and weak sister oil pump.

I've corrected most of the obvious compromises on mine so it fits me and does what I need it to do. Tall bars, better rear shocks, heavier fork oil, full rear fender, higher flow exhaust, manual petcock with a real inline fuel filter, bigger headlight with infinite adjustability... cam chain tensioner will be swapped out in September, failure prone switches and safeties deleted, wiring harness being shortened and armored...

Hop it up all you want, the engine design (not to mention the miniscule fuel tank) relegates it to commuter or toy status. I still like my Savage, but I don't trust it as far as I could throw it.
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #12 - 06/08/13 at 07:25:25
 
Another example along the lines of Lancer's is the motor in the BMW 650 GS:

652cc
BorexStroke 100mmx83mm
50hp at 6,500rpm
max torque 44 ft/lbs.  at 5,000

Water cooled,DOHC, four valves.fuel injected. regular gas

BMW claims a top speed of 106mph.

The bike is 423lbs wet so its a little bit heavier than a savage.

I suspect that this is pushing the limit as far as what can be gotten out of a single this size while still expecting the engine to last for many thousands of miles and deliver reasonable fuel economy.

If you want more HP you need more cylinders and more valves - like a Triumph Daytona - 675cc, three cylinders 12 valves, 126 HP at 12,500.
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #13 - 06/08/13 at 10:34:05
 
I was going to reply to Dave, but read on...

Then I was going to reply to Serowbot, but read on...

Then I was going to reply to JOG, but read on...

...and I'm glad I did, because wise old Lancer nailed it on the head !

Like the say in merrie olde Englande, it's "horses for courses".

The only things the Savage and the DR650 have in common is the brand badge on the tank.
Else, the Savage is a wet sump, low revving, low specific hp air cooled engine.
ENTIRELY BY MISTAKE it has a 4-valve headm had they equipped the Savage with a simple LARGE valve "2V" head, and quite possibly a better location for the spark plug, they would have done a better job.

My Savage's sweet spot for highway criusing is around 4000-4500rpm, but I prefer to stay around 3800-4000 which equates to 55-60ish.

Beyond that speed... the engine is quite capable, but the bike is not designed to cruise at anything Beyond 60-65mph.
Not with those pull back bars and forward controls.

As for "the best racing bikes yakk yakk yakk", I am sorrym, that is nonsense.

The best racing twin to be a 750? PL-E-E-E-ZE !!!
Hasn't anyone ever heard of DUCATI ? 848, 899, 998, 999, 1098, 1099, all the way up to the latest 1198cc screamer (if you can call the Ducati's growl a scream, it's more like the bellowing of an enraged bull !!! )



The same applies for APRILIA...



(Aprilia Tuono pictured with KTM SuperDuke)

The same applies for BMW's "HP2"... quite possibly the only factory bike other than the Ducati 1199 Panigale with a chronometer for lap times built into the instrumentation



Even the new, revived, resuscitated Norton Commandos are quite impressive scorchers...



Enjoy some Thunder !



Privateer on road legal Ducati 999 lapping Monza... see tach clocking 9500rpm!



This is a Superstock Panigale 1199 lapping Imola  Cheesy
(see how his handlebars snake all over the place in accelleration... Shocked)



Ducati Monster S4RS at a track day

AND NOW...
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FOR SOME RIVETING ACTION ( !!! )
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.
.
.
.


Kiss
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Re: Cubic Centimeter War Thread!
Reply #14 - 06/08/13 at 10:56:40
 
Looks like good practice for when the battery is low.
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