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LS400 vs 650 (Read 719 times)
paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #30 - 04/19/13 at 14:21:08
 
[quote author=756B626E606F736869070 link=1366243636/15#28 date=1366405896]I don't think there is enough material around the cylinder sleeve on the 400 to bore it out and put a 94mm sleeve in it. At the very least it would considerably weaken the cylinder to the point of failure under stress. I have personally bored out several 650's ....there is not enough material in the cylinder sleeve to go larger than 95mm which is why when going to a larger bore like 96 or 97mm you need to bore out the old sleve and put a bigger sleeve in. 97mm is the limit on the 650's without weakening the cylinder. I have not heard of anyone going larger than 97mm on a 650...mine is 97mm. The cylinder sleeve and the actual cylinder need enough material left after the overbore for structural strength. I hope this helps, I would be careful about going to big on the bore on that 400...I have seen engine explosions cause leg injuries. I hope this info helps.



[Its got about 106mm which safe usable would be 96mm leaving 10 mm or so.The pic doesn't look accurate but it is.
Same head but in factory the 400 line Bored out to 87 and the 650 line kept boring and stopped at 94mm.
If anyone has a 650 torn down as is interested we could compare measurements.
It is nearly impossible to find good info on the 400. No workshop manuals, nothing.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #31 - 04/20/13 at 10:25:40
 
paulmarshall wrote on 04/19/13 at 13:49:44:
[A different conrod does not make up the cc to 650 as it still goes up and down by the same amount. So I am thinking that the barrel and piston width must make up the other 250cc. ]


If one rod is shorter than the other then one will travel less and move down or up before the other.


Paul. Let me explain!. A crank gose up and down or in a circle if you want to be right about it. The distance that the crank goes up and down is the measurement away from the middle of a turning crank. If it comes up 3inch above centre or up the bore then as turns it goes down the bore a total of 6 inch from the top, TDC. So to get a piston connected to the crank it uses a conrod. That conrod length is calculated with the piston. If its a shallow piston it will be slightly longer than a normal piston. But the piston has to reach the top of the bore to compress the air and fuel. So no matter how long the conrod is, and the combination of conrod and piston. The piston only travels 6 inch like the crank. From the bottom of the stroke to the top. So that is the displacement cc. If we want bigger displacement we have to make the crank go in a bigger circle or movement up and down. To do this we can make it go 4 inch at its highest and 4 inch at its lowest, this makes 8 inch in total. So total displacement would be 8 inch which is bigger. The piston would be shallow this time or it would hit the head.
Anyway I have contacted a friend of mine in Japan. He is English and I have asked him if he can get me some information on the LS400. I am waiting for the reply. If anyone wants to know anything about the 400 let me know and I will ask him.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #32 - 04/20/13 at 11:47:48
 
If you have ever seen the movie "The World's fastest Indian" Starring Anthony Hopkins it is based on the true story of Burt Munroe from New Zealand who experimented with an Indian Scout 600cc 42 degree V-Twin of 1920's vintage and raced them on the long sand beaches of New Zealand. He eventually made it to Bonneville in 1962 with his bike and bored out to 850cc ran (178.97 mph) in his first attempt, a world record at the time...he was 63 years old!!!t. Over the years he came back to Bonneville several times with his antique Indian eventually having bored and stroked it out to 950cc. He blew up several engines in the process. his efforts eventually let to a world record for under 1000cc  motorcycles of (183.59) which still stands today.

This is by far my favorite motorcycle story and movie.

My second favorite is about Mike Hailwood's return from retirement to ride a nearly stock Ducati 860 to win the Isle Of Mann TT in 1968. Prior to the race he was almost universally dissed by competitors and the media alike as too old to be competitive! But that as they say is another story.

Here are a few links about Burt Munroe and his quest for the land speed record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Munro

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=burt+monroe&qpvt=burt+monroe&FORM=IGRE

http://www.gregwapling.com/hotrod/land-speed-racing-history/land-speed-racing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmWuxbQ_Ruc


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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #33 - 04/20/13 at 11:51:52
 
If anyone wants to know anything about the 400 let me know and I will ask him.

[Yes please I want to know if what your saying is true and keep us informed if you should go ahead with this mod.
Earlier posts on this topic suggest different.]
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #34 - 04/20/13 at 11:56:13
 
If you have ever seen the movie "The World's fastest Indian" Starring Anthony Hopkins.

[ Yes it is a good movie. I forgot about him, I might download that movie today and watch it. Smiley]

Watched the Fastest Indian today and at the end of the movie there was a caption that read "The fastest speed under 1000cc still belongs to him. He has held it since the 60s with a 1920s Indian. How is this possible with mod tech these days?
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« Last Edit: 04/21/13 at 12:56:29 by paulmarshall »  
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #35 - 04/21/13 at 12:43:58
 
Here is a pic from "The Companion CD" showing 24B on a 650 Rod, while the 400 had 25B. I would like to know the length differences but cant find anything on these 400s.
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« Last Edit: 04/27/13 at 12:50:08 by paulmarshall »  

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wambr
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #36 - 04/21/13 at 22:50:39
 
here's a photo for comparison: on the right crankshaft LS400, on the left-LS650 and respectively pistons

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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #37 - 04/21/13 at 22:56:20
 
There is quite a noticeable difference in the crankshafts. And you can see how the 400 piston is higher.
Wambr have you converted a 400 into a 650 before?
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #38 - 04/21/13 at 23:21:53
 
I haven't pulled mine down that far, does 400 and 650 crankshafts look like they would both fit the same flywheel? What about the primary drive side, Could we in your opinion straight swap out the 400 crank for the 650?
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #39 - 04/22/13 at 00:20:31
 
no, I have not altered my savage 400 to 650. it did some guys in Russia this they showed pics. Yes, flywheels on the engines 650 and 400 are the same.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #40 - 04/22/13 at 07:52:26
 
Burt Munroe machined his own cylinder heads for his Indian Scout motorcycle which is the clue to his success. The 1920 Indian Scout was 600cc and a FLATHEAD. Burt made his own overhead valve heads. Airflow is EVERYTHING to an engine and Burt found a way to make his breathe  better than anything. Even today with all the high tech computer design no one has been able to beat that record...says a lot for old school ingenuity.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #41 - 04/22/13 at 11:17:40
 
According to the movie he reached a top speed of 201 mph. Shocked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW61Qiko4sg
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #42 - 04/22/13 at 11:26:12
 
wambr wrote on 04/22/13 at 00:20:31:
no, I have not altered my savage 400 to 650. it did some guys in Russia this they showed pics. Yes, flywheels on the engines 650 and 400 are the same.


So I should be able to replace the Crank Shaft, Piston & Bore out the  Cylinder Head.
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« Last Edit: 04/22/13 at 17:26:57 by paulmarshall »  
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #43 - 06/10/13 at 07:11:53
 
I have the chance of buying a barrel and piston with crank and rod from a 650. Can anyone tell me if that is all I will need to convert a 400cc Savage to a 650cc. Not sure about carb jets, or the balance weight on the crank. The cylinder head I am not too sure about either. I think I have read on here they are the same. But the 400cc does not have a decompression lifter. So could I fit one cheap? (a manual type).
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #44 - 06/10/13 at 07:37:20
 
paulmarshall wrote on 04/22/13 at 11:17:40:
According to the movie he reached a top speed of 201 mph. Shocked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW61Qiko4sg

yeah... I saw this movie! just cool! man played his cherished dream... we can firmly say-life was not lived in vain! thank you Paul!
to SteveBless
Steve, do it! believe me, that nothing particularly hard in this matter, no. have to put the other jets in the carburetor and decompressor lever ...can be hand operated.
good hunting!
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Yeah, it's not bigtwin, but it is the best half of it
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