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LS400 vs 650 (Read 719 times)
paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #15 - 04/18/13 at 11:39:26
 
Dave and Wambr thank you for that info. I knew I could open her up and get different measurements, but needed your expertise to help with the technical stuff.

I could Bore it to 96mm and call it a LS500 special. Now that would make a original bike. a 500 single Cafe Racer. The only one like it, now that I like.
I have enough parts to build another bike.
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« Last Edit: 04/23/13 at 12:45:41 by paulmarshall »  
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wambr
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #16 - 04/18/13 at 22:09:29
 
I still could for example show the approximate dimensions пошня Ls 400, if you want to
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #17 - 04/18/13 at 23:16:15
 
I still could for example show the approximate dimensions пошня Ls 400, if you want to

[Yes that would be helpful thanks.  Smiley]
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #18 - 04/19/13 at 02:40:01
 
Hi Paul, I too have a LS400 here in the UK. The bike is very much a mint looking bike. Only 5000 miles from new and I am the first owner since imported. I am also thinking of bigger piston and barrel. From what I am reading here, do I take it that the LS400 has a different crank/stroke to the LS650? or can I put a 650 barrel and piston with a head from a 650 (or can I keep mine?.) and that would run OK. I may need to re-jet the carb. Oh yeh, is the carb the same as a 650 bore wise?. Another thing is the decompression valve. The 400 does not have one. Could I fit one cheaply?.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #19 - 04/19/13 at 12:10:17
 
Hi Paul, I too have a LS400 here in the UK. The bike is very much a mint looking bike. Only 5000 miles from new and I am the first owner since imported. I am also thinking of bigger piston and barrel. From what I am reading here, do I take it that the LS400 has a different crank/stroke to the LS650? or can I put a 650 barrel and piston with a head from a 650 (or can I keep mine?.) and that would run OK. I may need to re-jet the carb. Oh yeh, is the carb the same as a 650 bore wise?. Another thing is the decompression valve. The 400 does not have one. Could I fit one cheaply?.


[Hi Steve,I am yet to measure the 400 piston pin but according to Wambr they are different.Paladin made a very good point that due to our stroke being shorter, If we bored out to 94mm, (which is a stock 650 Bore) we would have a higher revving 484 cc. (I think.)
What I did was buy a 650 engine and bolted it right in.I did buy the wiring loom and carb, decompression unit etc.At the moment I am using the over jetted 400 carb with no worries. I only brought the 650 wiring loom because the 400 loom does not have a decomp unit.However u can use a manual decomp as I do now, so a 400 wiring loom will work.
The carbs are the same with smaller jets, so replace them.
The head is the same.
The other way which unless you do it yourself will $$$$, Split the bottom and fit new 650 rod and piston and Bore your barrall to 94mm. If your going that far maybe Bore out to 96 and use Verslagens 96mm Piston.
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« Last Edit: 04/19/13 at 15:11:55 by paulmarshall »  
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #20 - 04/19/13 at 12:15:11
 
paulmarshall wrote on 04/18/13 at 23:16:15:
I still could for example show the approximate dimensions пошня Ls 400, if you want to

[Yes that would be helpful thanks.  Smiley]

tomorrow I drawing of the piston and shoot it and put in post. but in General I think, that the nearest option to increase the volume of the engine with minimal mods-Suzuki DRZ 400-- piston 90mm in diameter and approximately of the same form(so I thought) the piston pin it seems the same size.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #21 - 04/19/13 at 12:38:03
 
Hi Steve,I am yet to measure the 400 piston pin but according to Wambr they are different.Paladin made a very good point that due to our stroke being shorter, If we bored out to 94mm, (which is a stock 650 Bore) we would have a higher revving 484 cc. (I think.)
What I did was buy a 650 engine and bolted it right in.I did buy the wiring loom and carb, decompression unit etc. I only brought the 650 wiring loom because the 400 loom does not have a decomp unit.However u can use a manual decomp as I do now, so a 400 wiring loom will work.
The carbs are the same with smaller jets, so replace them.
The head is the same.
The other way which unless you do it yourself will $$$$, Split the bottom and fit new 650 rod and piston and Bore your barrall to 94mm. If your going that far maybe Bore out to 96 and use Verslagens 96mm Piston.


You say say the 400 has a short stroke so the only way I can see as to get the displacement up, is to fit a 650 crank as it must be a long stroke. No matter what combination of rods pistons, if the two engines (400cc and 650cc) have different stroke measurements, then the conversion is never going to get to 650cc. Does anyone think I am right in thinking this. I have always read from various forums that only the barrel and piston are different on the two engines. So If I can get hold of a second hand Crank, and rod and piston with barrel. I think I can get to 650 cc with re jetting of the carb.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #22 - 04/19/13 at 12:50:28
 
[quote author=5275647764436D647272010 link=1366243636/15#21 date=1366400283]Hi Steve,I am yet to measure the 400 piston pin but according to Wambr they are different.Paladin made a very good point that due to our stroke being shorter, If we bored out to 94mm, (which is a stock 650 Bore) we would have a higher revving 484 cc. (I think.)
What I did was buy a 650 engine and bolted it right in.I did buy the wiring loom and carb, decompression unit etc. I only brought the 650 wiring loom because the 400 loom does not have a decomp unit.However u can use a manual decomp as I do now, so a 400 wiring loom will work.
The carbs are the same with smaller jets, so replace them.
The head is the same.
The other way which unless you do it yourself will $$$$, Split the bottom and fit new 650 rod and piston and Bore your barrall to 94mm. If your going that far maybe Bore out to 96 and use Verslagens 96mm Piston.


You say say the 400 has a short stroke so the only way I can see as to get the displacement up, is to fit a 650 crank as it must be a long stroke. No matter what combination of rods pistons, if the two engines (400cc and 650cc) have different stroke measurements, then the conversion is never going to get to 650cc. Does anyone think I am right in thinking this. I have always read from various forums that only the barrel and piston are different on the two engines. So If I can get hold of a second hand Crank, and rod and piston with barrel. I think I can get to 650 cc with re jetting of the carb.

[The stroke being the length of rod. The crank is the same as a 650. They would have used a different height piston in the 400.]
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #23 - 04/19/13 at 12:54:36
 
The Japs wanted to convert a 650 to a 400 with min effort. Everything is the same except for the Bore and Stroke.
The Rods are clearly different as the 400 has 24B and a 650 has 24A stamped on them.. Or something like that.

I will measure 400 piston hight today to confirm .
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #24 - 04/19/13 at 13:03:24
 
Easiest way is to bolt a 650 straight in like I did. However in NZ we pay more to register a 650 to a 400, So in the bigger picture I would save money if I plan on keeping bike long term. The bike would say 400 on the outside but 650 inside.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #25 - 04/19/13 at 13:21:53
 
paulmarshall wrote on 04/19/13 at 13:03:24:
Easiest way is to bolt a 650 straight in like I did. However in NZ we pay more to register a 650 to a 400, So in the bigger picture I would save money if I plan on keeping bike long term. The bike would say 400 on the outside but 650 inside.


That is what I was thinking. Leaving the 400cc marks on the cases. Tax is cheaper for a 400 than a 650 here in the UK. Although insurance would be the same.
A different conrod does not make up the cc to 650 as it still goes up and down by the same amount. So I am thinking that the barrel and piston width must make up the other 250cc. Does anyone agree.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #26 - 04/19/13 at 13:42:46
 
Our laws are very similar not surprising as we are all part of the commonwealth.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #27 - 04/19/13 at 13:49:44
 
[A different conrod does not make up the cc to 650 as it still goes up and down by the same amount. So I am thinking that the barrel and piston width must make up the other 250cc. ]


If one rod is shorter than the other then one will travel less and move down or up before the other.
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #28 - 04/19/13 at 14:11:36
 
I don't think there is enough material around the cylinder sleeve on the 400 to bore it out and put a 94mm sleeve in it. At the very least it would considerably weaken the cylinder to the point of failure under stress. I have personally bored out several 650's ....there is not enough material in the cylinder sleeve to go larger than 95mm which is why when going to a larger bore like 96 or 97mm you need to bore out the old sleve and put a bigger sleeve in. 97mm is the limit on the 650's without weakening the cylinder. I have not heard of anyone going larger than 97mm on a 650...mine is 97mm. The cylinder sleeve and the actual cylinder need enough material left after the overbore for structural strength. I hope this helps, I would be careful about going to big on the bore on that 400...I have seen engine explosions cause leg injuries. I hope this info helps.
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paulmarshall
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Re: LS400 vs 650
Reply #29 - 04/19/13 at 14:13:13
 

There is noting that I would want more is for it to be that easy, Because I would have done it too. Please prove me wrong and do it so I can follow.
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