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Thinking aloud..... re: horsepower (Read 331 times)
jcstokes
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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #15 - 03/16/13 at 02:13:57
 
Well done Jiggyfly.
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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #16 - 03/17/13 at 07:05:11
 












There needs to be a I S O for HP  how can a 250hp gas engine say chevy 350 do the same work as a cummins 250hp or a honda 1100 engine? no transmission hook up to a honda is going to pull a load or move a load like the Cummins. and the cummins is not going to get there fast.   I,ve been trying to understand this for 30+ yrs [slow learner] it should be torque that it's rated in. the chevy mite put out say 200 fp and the cummins put out 700 and the honda maybe 50.  alittle bell helicopter engine put out 250 hp an weighs 168# were as the cummins weighs 2500# there are some wild a$$ clams out there that' s why you can't get bike manufacturers to tell you hp they did put it out in days past  Embarrassed








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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #17 - 03/17/13 at 10:49:42
 
Measuring horsepower isn't as easy as it sounds, because it can't be measured directly. One has to measure torque and engine speed, then compute horsepower. It can also be difficult to attach a dynamometer to the engine, particularly on unit construction machinery like motorcycles.

Another issue involves time. Is the power measured for a very brief time, as on a Dynajet dyno? Or is it measured for hours, as done in the Nebraska Tractor Test Lab wherein a tractor is expected to pull its rated load on a test track for ten hours? The first case puts essentially no heat into the cooling system, while the second requires the cooling system to dissipate waste heat for hours. Some airplane engines were rated with a five-minute rating for takeoff power and a lower rating for continuous use. Automotive engines are seldom used at full power for any significant time while engines used to drive irrigation wells may operate near maximum for several days. I personally doubt that any automotive engine (except for the sub-250cc class in small motorcycles and scooters) would survive an hour at full throttle without overheating.

To a first approximation, the heat released when fuel burns in the internal combustion engine is divided into thirds. One third exits the engine as hot exhaust gasses. One third is lost into the engine cooling system. The remaining third is converted to mechanical energy, then part of that is wasted in internal friction and other mechanical losses. This means the cooling system has to dissipate more energy - heat - than makes it out as useful work. When the engine is run on a dynamometer the dyno has to dissipate a lot of heat, too.
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Eschew obfuscation.

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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #18 - 03/17/13 at 11:41:51
 
Reading these replies really helps me to understand, uh, understand why I'm so confused with the subject  Grin
You guys are a wealth of knowledge, and its obvious well versed in the matter too!

And Boofer, your recommendations I really appreciate.  I haven't subscribed to a mag in years, but your reasoning sounds good to me. I will also check out that web site too, for I do have more questions than answers, and if its geared to accommodate newbies redundant questions without stanching the flow of the board, all the better, THANKS!
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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #19 - 03/18/13 at 05:05:13
 
Measuring hp is like measuring a rubber band, there are systems to measure hp and there are ways to express the individual items.

Horsepower is the "strength" required to execute a certain amount of work, ok, but there are different ways to measure horsepower, especially when it comes to the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine).

There are those who measure "net hp" such as the American Society of Automotive Engineers" (SAE), and they would unhook all ancillaries to the engine, no mufflers, no water pump, no dynamo/alternator, no gearbox, to the extent they would even use an electric oil pump to eliminate all possible sources of external power absorption (consumption) .
This system would give a "SAE net" hp reading, and it is through this system that US manufacturers would claim a certain V8 engine could produce... 390hp. (1970's big blocks everywhere, from the 360 Hemi to the 442 to the 454...)

This includes those UK and Italian sports cars productions up to the 1960s (Italy) all the way to the 1980s (UK)

So a 2-liter 16-valve Triumph Dolomite Sprint was rated at 140hp (SAE net) vs. a 2-liter Alfa Romeo (150 SAE net) vs. a 2-liter Lancia (140 SAE net)

Then there were the Europeans, who would use the German system "Detsche Industrie Norme" which required the engine to be tested with ALL expected ancillaries connected; not surprisingly the hp reading would be lower, yet often those cars equipped with the "less powerful" engines proved better performers that the "more powerful" SAE net competitors (130 hp DIN BMW 2002 Tii vs. 140 SAE net Triumph Dolomite Sprint)

So, Horsepower may be defined as "the capability of an engine to PUSH a load", hence the capability of a more powerful engine to push a car to a faster top speed vs. the same car with a less powerful engijne - you have to push through wind resistance.

TORQUE... hahaha, define that !!!

Torque is the "twist momentum", i.e. the capability of a crank to operate a pulley, or... of an engine to gather speed (rpm) under a defined load.

So, an engine with 100 hp and "X" torque will accellerate the 1/4 mile with a certain time and exit speed;
BUT
equip the same car with an engine which, with the same hp, delivers more torque, and that car will accellerate through the gears faster and exit the 1/4 mile quicker, because the engine with better torque will labor less and gather rpm faster.

As an anecdote... did you know that the average saddle horse will only develop 1/2 hp?  Huh

That's because, when first asked to measure the "power" of a steam engine, physicists used the huge "draught" (draft) horse, the large (generally stallion) with thick, feathered legs and woolly hooves used for towing large loads.
A normal "stock" horse is only half as powerful in mucle terms, hence is 1/2 hp.




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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #20 - 03/18/13 at 09:35:23
 
We did a test in Science class, holding the back of a chair, jumping & putting toes on the seat, over & over. Calculated weight & height X Jumps/minute & I came in 2nd overall at .8 HP. Not too shabby for a skinny kid,
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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #21 - 03/18/13 at 18:52:30
 
You might find the Wikipedia article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower - to be interesting. It describes some of the calculations about the amount of work a horse could produce, and the idea behind ratings in "horsepower."
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Eschew obfuscation.

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Re: Thinking aloud..... horsepower
Reply #22 - 03/24/13 at 23:36:49
 
Charon wrote on 03/17/13 at 10:49:42:
To a first approximation, the heat released when fuel burns in the internal combustion engine is divided into thirds. One third exits the engine as hot exhaust gasses. One third is lost into the engine cooling system. The remaining third is converted to mechanical energy, then part of that is wasted in internal friction and other mechanical losses. This means the cooling system has to dissipate more energy - heat - than makes it out as useful work. When the engine is run on a dynamometer the dyno has to dissipate a lot of heat, too.



& these, too are older approximations. The thing about HP & torque is that their constantly changing constants. The theory's never change....it's physics. But things like "the 3rds" change, with advances in cooling, anti-friction coatings, electronics, etc. for comparisons sake, they must be done on the same day, on the same dyno, under the same circumstances, etc.
My dyno run in South Carolina vs your dyno run I'm Iowa is like comparing is like saying "if my aunt had balls......she'd be my uncle!"

so much of this is over-thought, & under used. I've seen 50hp motorcycles catch, pass, & leave 100hp+ motorcycles on a racetrack. The first question about horsepower is, "are we really using all we have?"......!? As a racer amongst racers, the first thing everyone wants to do is give it more HP! What percentage are using all that they have? Answer; few. I can post videos of me running away from 170hp motorcycles on my 30hp Ninja 250. The point being, a vast majority of us would be better suited to suspension upgrades, & true rider training than simply more HP. Don't get me wrong! I rode a 130hp Yamaha R6 while I instructed at CMP 3 weeks ago, & banging 4th gear @ 115mph & having the front end come up was exhilarating! 130hp I can handle......maybe not like an AMA factory guy, but I could qualify for an AMA national. Now a 1000? No thanks!  Shocked

Interestingly, I've always enjoyed lower HP bikes far more than excessively powered bikes. Besides.....everybody's got a 'Busa!  Tongue
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