SuzukiSavage.com - Lithium Ion Battery Help

fascar228

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #15 - 02/20/13 at 03:00:36

Hello All,

Can someone shed light on the charging mechanics for a lithium battery...as i understand they cannot be charged like a lead acid battery.

So in a bike or car the charging system is different and the charging system for lithium batteries is different.

How do you make the 2 different setups to merge...is there a separate. circuitry involved.

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Dave

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #16 - 02/20/13 at 05:18:59

fascar228 wrote on 02/20/13 at 03:00:36:

Hello All,
Can someone shed light on the charging mechanics for a lithium battery...as i understand they cannot be charged like a lead acid battery.
How do you make the 2 different setups to merge...is there a separate. circuitry involved.

The EarthX battery that I bought has the circuitry built into the battery that equalizes the charges in the cells. The Ballistic Battery suggests that for maximum life - you should purchase their charger/equilizer and use it to equalize the cells periodically. I believe that few people actually do that.

I chose the EarthX as it can be treated lke a normal battery - with the caveate that any/all Lithium Batteries will fail if they are run flat or overcharged.

Here is what EarthX says on their website:

Lithium batteries are fundamentally different than lead-acid batteries. The lithium cells inside the 12V battery need electronics to monitor and balance the voltage/charge of the individual cells. Other companies sell a balancing charger, which you have to plugin periodically to “top off” and balance the cells. Inside every one of our batteries is a microprocessor Battery Management System (BMS) that monitors the charge level of each cell and balances the charge when needed, protecting the cells from overcharge or over-discharge.

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Gyrobob Serious Thumper Offline Posers ain't motorcyclists Posts: 2571 Newnan, GA Gender:	Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Reply #17 - 02/20/13 at 17:25:12 I'd like to build on this thought: "I chose the EarthX as it can be treated lke a normal battery - with the caveate that any/all Lithium Batteries will fail if they are run flat or overcharged." ANY battery will fail if run flat or overcharged.
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uigiroux

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #18 - 04/01/14 at 19:10:19

Badass94Cad wrote on 01/30/13 at 10:01:51:

For those who have swapped to a smaller batterI and mounted it to the swingarm, any pics?

I got the Earth X ETX12A, had a custom box made from sheet metal and am just am ready to finish the move, but I'm currently trying to find cable long enough to reach it so I have it just mounted in the stock box. As for it being on the swing arm, my box fits with enough space inside to put padding all around it, and a little extra space for extra cables. I mounted it down there and put the bike on my jack and removed the suspension and it clears the swing arm just fine. You just want to make sure you don't make your box so it mounts further back then the bottom of the ledge, and for space up front I made the box a bit take so I could have holes large enough to fit over the welded on bolts cut into the box so it basically mounts from the bottom, and is also held in place up top. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post pics right now but I'll be posting lots soon to show what I've done. I've gotta say, even though it wasn't wired yet, it looked great down there, and I seem to be the only one who's done a fully enclosed box, but I think for the sake of protecting the battery and hiding the cables (and I've painted it gloss black like the frame) it's really worth taking the extra step which really wasn't that much. Also I spent months going over which battery to get and while the Earth X 2 year warranty isn't as good as the 3 year from Ballistic, this battery has a built in battery management system (BMS) which allows you to use any normal charger, unlike all the others requiring you to purchase their $50+ special chargers. The ETX12A is $169 but I Googled it and found a 10% off coupon so I got it for $153 no tax and free shipping and that's it, no special charger to buy. I think that along with the built in BMS and the 10% really sealed the deal, but even at $169 I'd still go with that one. Safest overall choice and very good warranty. PICS COMING SOON!

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ToesNose Serious Thumper Offline Pardon me, do you have Hot Sauce? Posts: 1993 Mooresville, NC Gender:	Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Reply #19 - 04/02/14 at 04:25:49 Hey Uigiroux sounds like a nice set up, looking forward to the pics
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shorty Serious Thumper Offline be careful out there gentlemen Posts: 547 southern NM Gender:	Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help Reply #20 - 04/02/14 at 05:22:22 I installed a Shorai 14 amp for $120 (Amazon) moved it to the muffler bracket/shelf ... removed the entire stock battery box ... looks clean
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shorty

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #21 - 04/02/14 at 05:31:23

fascar228 wrote on 02/20/13 at 03:00:36:

Hello All,

Can someone shed light on the charging mechanics for a lithium battery...as i understand they cannot be charged like a lead acid battery.

So in a bike or car the charging system is different and the charging system for lithium batteries is different.

How do you make the 2 different setups to merge...is there a separate. circuitry involved.

there are two types of lithium batteries..
lithium polymer (LI-PO)
lithium iron (LI-FE)
..the LI-FE is more accepting of automotive charging systems
..the LI-PO is slightly more powerful & lighter but dangerous without specific charging parameters

the LI-FE chemistry is usually marketed for consumer applications

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seedubs1

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #22 - 04/02/14 at 07:57:38

Typically, when I use 18650 Li-Ion's, I get batteries that are "protected." That means they have circuitry built into the battery to keep it from overcharging or undercharging. If it senses over/undercharge, it essentially puts the battery into "protect" mode.

As I understand it, the Li-Ion batts for bikes have multiple cells. So they also need to have the cells balanced. EarthX is the only batt that has this balancing circuit built in. For others, you have to buy a separate circuitry module and periodically recharge the batt with the module hooked up to balance the cells.

However, there's not much mention of a protection circuit for under/overcharging being used for any of the motorcycle batteries.

Does anyone have/know of a module that we can wire into our bike (kind of like a regulator/rectifier is wired in) that will:
1) Act as a protection circuit for over/under charge
2) Balance the Li-Ion cells

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Quimrider

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Re: Lithium Ion Battery Help
Reply #23 - 08/17/16 at 08:06:12

I bought a Battery Tender model BTL14A240C from Amazon.com in spring 2015. I just used some wood cut up and painted to use as spacers in the battery box. Someday I'll fab up a custom battery box. I've used Lithium batteries for several years on my other motorcycle.

I believe this is just an 8 cell lithium iron phosphate battery (4s2p)

The thing to keep in mind about these lithium batteries being sold for motorcycles is that they are significantly smaller capacity batteries. The reason you can get away with this is the lithium packs are slightly higher voltage and can put out significantly higher current than lead-acid batteries. Short bursts of high current is what is needed for starting and what these lithium packs are ideal for.

Also if you do a lot of cold weather riding Lithium batteries are not for you. They can work but you have to "wake up" the battery. I'm not sure but I believe it's putting a load on a cold lithium battery heats up the battery by the resistance in the cell. Once warmed up the cell starts to work again.

Here is me trying to start my Vulcan 500 on a cold winter day with an 8 cell lithium iron phosphate pack (4s2p):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHSbL-cBUFM

And a ridiculous extreme of trying to start it in -13F conditions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPXG5_LQcYM
I might have been able to eventually start it but I gave up when my bare fingers started to literally freeze.

Over the last almost year and a half I have not needed to do anything to the battery except for 2 weeks after I got it when I stoopidly turned the key to park (tail light on) instead of off and completely drained the battery. I figured the battery was toast but I jump started it from a car and drove 3 miles down the road to dinner. Much to my surprise that little distance was enough of a charge that I could start the bike after dinner. I rode home and charged it briefly with a standard lead acid charger to get some charge back into it. FYI you typically don't want to use a lead acid charger since it can easily over charge and ruin a lithium battery. I'm sure that little mistake shortened the battery's life but it's still cranking strong.

It's my understanding that the cells used in these batteries are the same used in power tools and tend to be much more tolerant of over charging/draining too low compared to other lithium batteries such as Lithium polymer (LiPO) often used in hobby RC applications. LiPO are very easy to destroy if over charged or drained too low.

I'm sure occasionally balancing cells will extend the batteries life but in my experience it isn't absolutely necessary.

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