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Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again! (Read 18122 times)
DragBikeMike
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #390 - 07/13/24 at 23:56:39
 
You have been a Busy Beaver.  Cool that you were able to get those high-speed drive gears installed.  That 30-weight oil sure makes it hard to build any oil pressure.  At least it bumped up a bit.

I like the way you relocated the bleed jet to the top of the filter cavity.  That might also help to bleed air out of the cavity.  Good call on that.

"I am running the stock cam tensioner spring inside the new plunger I made.  I have allowed 2mm of movement."

What I was fishing for is how much back travel you had before you disassembled the CCT.  I'm curious about the heavy indentation on your stop.  The only way that I can see that occurring is if the plunger is repeatedly slamming into the stop.  My experience has been that the back travel increases as you run the engine.  Your increase should be more accelerated than mine because I buck up my rear guide with a jack screw.  I believe I have shown with repeated measurements and tests that the chain doesn't wear much; the guide deforms.  If I have to periodically adjust mine to maintain 1.5mm back travel, then you probably have to do the same albeit more frequently.  While mine can be adjusted with a screw, yours must be adjusted with a longer stop.  That's a little more involved but certainly easy enough.  That plunger really pumps when your remove the pawl.  If you let the back travel get too big, it will hammer the stop, like yours seems to be doing.  That's not too big a deal, but if it's hammering the stop it's also letting the intake valves hammer into the seats.  The cam is supposed to place the valves on the seats gently.  It can't do that if the CCT is letting the cam run away on the intake closing event.  Running without the pawl has good points and bad points.

Did you happen to check that back travel before you disassembled the CCT?

Regarding the hole in the stop, IMO you should eliminate the hole.  Run a solid stop so that you have maximum spring load.

I really appreciate the oil pressure data.  It is very valuable; especially the way the weight of the oil is impacting your pressure.  The decrease in pressure is a lot more than I thought it would be.  That gage setup is sweet; very nice tool.  Every Savage aficionado should have one of those.  I'm currently running Rotella for my breakin and I am not seeing such a dramatic change from the 50 weight to the 40 weight.  You absolutely must reinstall that gage when you go back to 40 weight so we can see what the change in pressure is.

Regarding the cranking pressure, do you happen to know what your combustion chamber volume is?  I don't recall, did you measure the quench clearance and if so, what was it?  I assume you are running an OEM MLS gasket with that 94mm bore.  Do you happen to know when Lancer had the 97mm flat-top valve reliefs modified by Wiseco, did they also tweak the 94mm?  That might have resulted in additional volume.
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Dave
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #391 - 07/14/24 at 10:20:30
 
The back travel I had on the previous tensioner was about 3mm and it opened up to around 4mm in the 3,000 miles of use.  The tensioner extension was 13.4mm when I put it together several year ago - and it opened up to 14mm.  So - it appears I got 0.6mm of new extension and 1.3mm of dent to the aluminum spacer.

On the new spacer after running it for 50 miles - I have 16mm of extension and it is 12mm when pushed back. (The plunger I built has more shaft length so the 17mm measurement is not apples to apples for the stock plunger).  This is an example of my inability to do things right the first time.  I measured the distance between the mount for the tensioner body and the bolt for the plunger - and I tried to replicate that distance in the new plunger and allow only 1mm of back travel....it appears I missed it by 3mm.    I just built a 4mm steel spacer and put it in the tensioner body - there is only a small amount of back travel with the spring pushing on the chain......I rotated the engine over a few times and there is little or no movement of the plunger.

I am not sure what you mean by closing up the hole - do you mean the oil hole I drilled?  The center of my plunger is drilled just like the stock one to allow room for the tension spring.

The 30 weight oil just seems to be too light for anyone trying to keep pressure.  The pump likely has trouble pushing it without some bleed past the rotor at slow speed - and the bearings and orifices don't provide much restriction to it.....so it just passes through easily.  There is likely still good flow - it just doesn't offer much resistance and it does not move the pressure gauge at idle.  (I am going to check the low psi accuracy by connecting it to a T fitting in combination with another gauge and see if they agree).  I am giving up on the 30 weight oil, as it is likely designed for folks building water cooled V8 engines that use 10W-30 oil.....I have dumped the initial filling of 30 weight and will add the rest of the gallon and use some 20W-50 to top up crankcase and run a few more miles on it.  I have ordered 2 quarts of 10W-40 break in oil and will use that.....then switch to the Rotella T6 15W-40.

I have a small oil leak that is blowing a bit of oil on the back of the engine near the starter.  The top end is dry - it appears the oil is coming from the top of the clutch cover gasket where the oil passage is located.  I have been using this gasket for years and likely had the clutch cover off a dozen times as I worked on the DR650 clutch, the Sneezy clutch cam, the tensioner and now the piston swap and oil pump change.  I hate to give this gasket up as it is the one with the steel sandwiched between some form of gasket coating....it has lasted a very long time and does not stick to the metal when you take the clutch cover off.  The new gasket from Suzuki is paper and it has a sealing compound on both sides of the gasket at the top - I suspect it will seal well but it will not be reusable.  
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« Last Edit: 07/14/24 at 12:02:36 by Dave »  

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #392 - 07/14/24 at 13:46:09
 
Congrats on getting her on the road again, Dave!!

Sounds like you are getting the kinks worked out.  I have all the confidence in the world you'll get 'er dun in prime fashion!

I know you are busy, but do you think a few extra ounces of oil would help with the low oil pressure without causing harm?  I know 30w is thin, but those numbers are surprising nonetheless.  Definitely a good idea to go with the 10w-40 break-in oil and try to get those numbers up.  Makes me think a 20w-50 weight might me a good idea down here in Houston.

Did Suzuki stop making the good clutch cover gasket with the steel insert?  I'm familiar with the other one with the pre-applied sealing compound applied to it.  I found out it is "single use" (or at least when I tried to salvage it).
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #393 - 07/14/24 at 13:47:06
 
When I sent a head, and cylinder I believe, to Wiseco for them to design a new flattop-dished piston, it was for both the 97 & 94 pistons.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #394 - 07/14/24 at 14:50:00
 
I believe this solves the issue about not having any oil pressure at idle.

The 0-60 gauge I was using doesn't even come off the peg until I have about 4.5 psi of pressure.

I believe I am going to buy a 0-30 psi gauge that will read more accurately.  I will install a valve and shut the gauge off until the oil is fully warmed up and readings will be low.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #395 - 07/14/24 at 20:08:12
 
I would use a quick connect coupler and just change them out or remove them.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #396 - 07/14/24 at 23:54:11
 
I would want to know the lowest readings to find area needing most attention , even if the fix is an idle adjustment. Reading at filter is good ,but before oil enters crank and/or cam/rockers , but all are essential to finding problem areas. Well fed Cam & rockers is always a priority.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #397 - 07/15/24 at 00:13:28
 
"I am not sure what you mean by closing up the hole - do you mean the oil hole I drilled?"

I mean the hole in the stop.  It looks to me like you have a hole in the stop and the spring runs through that hole.  I would eliminate the hole, it will increase your spring preload.  It might help a little, but IMO your problem lies in too much back travel.  Your rear guide is very flexible so you don't have to worry about the CCT being too tight.  I would bring that back travel down to .060" or even .040".  If you let that plunger float much more than .060" you lose control over the intake closing point.  Not too big a deal since the DR cam already closes the thing almost at BDC (34 degerees ABDC is pretty darned early).  But it is never good to have any variation in valve timing, especially when you run the piston so close to the head.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #398 - 07/15/24 at 00:20:08
 
I agree with Paul, the latest OEM clutch cover gasket is the steel gasket with polymer coating.  That paper gasket with the silicone bead is old stuff. I've lost track of how many times I have re-used that gasket.  It is worth every penny of the $30 buck that the thing costs.

Did the OEM change back to the old-style gasket?  If they did it's a crime.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #399 - 07/15/24 at 03:31:34
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 07/15/24 at 00:20:08:
I've lost track of how many times I have re-used that gasket.  It is worth every penny of the $30 buck that the thing costs.

Did the OEM change back to the old-style gasket?  If they did it's a crime.


Well - I don't know for sure.  I have a big plastic box with my spare parts that includes gaskets and seals for the engine that I have ordered over the last 12 years. The clutch cover gasket on the bike was the one with the metal interior.....not sure when I put it on.  The box had 1 Suzuki gasket still in the bag with the Suzuki part number on it, and another aftermarket paper gasket.

I will order a new replacement and report on what is delivered.  For now the clutch cover has the Suzuki one with the sealant.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #400 - 07/15/24 at 05:11:36
 
Let us know, Dave.  I’ll probably be ordering a few gaskets myself pretty soon.  The last clutch side gasket I bought did NOT have the steel insert.  I installed and prayed I wouldn’t have to open up again soon.  

BUT, it was better quality than the OEM alternator side gasket I bought at almost the exact same time.  I didn’t understand that.  That said, the OEM alternator side gasket was better quality than the cheesy aftermarket gasket I tried to use (you could make a comparable crappy gasket out of a cereal box - junk).

Some people must be good with RTV.  This project bike motor I have doesn’t have gaskets  on either side (just sealant) and there are no signs of leakage.  I’m impressed.  It would be leaking like a stuck pig if I tried that.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #401 - 07/15/24 at 08:29:09
 
Thumperpaul,

In my very limited experience it has become my conviction that if you apply RTV to a gasket joint, with the tip of your finger, not unlike the way you would apply balm to your lips, you will end up with a perfect seal without extreme protrusions.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #402 - 07/15/24 at 11:34:02
 
Interesting technique Finn.  Dave and DBM coached me through applying the sealant on the head cover using a syringe.  It took great restraint on my part not to run my finger through it!  It worked beautifully like yours, and no leaks.

Whoever did the side covers on this motor was able to use sealant only (no gaskets).  That impressed me since I’ve ended up with leaks using gaskets!

I like Dave’s guidance on this topic (paraphrasing)….  If the factory used a gasket somewhere, use a gasket.  If the factory used sealant, use sealant.  This guidance was provided when I was frustrated with a leak and wanted to use sealant and a gasket together.  Thankfully, I managed to get it right the 2nd time using only a gasket.  Crazy how not getting the gasket situated exactly right results in a good bleeder!  I’d appreciate a couple extra locating dowels to hold the gasket in place a little better when you’re trying to get it back together.
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #403 - 07/16/24 at 13:44:21
 
Now we are getting somewhere.

I got a new 30psi gauge today, and when I checked it against the 15psi gauge I had they were both reading very close at the 1-5 psi range that was not working on the 60psi gauge.

I installed a valve so I could shut the flow to the gauge off while the oil was cold and likely to exceed 30psi.

I dumped the first fill of 30 weight break-in oil and refilled the engine with the rest of the oil in the jug.  Once the engine was fully warmed up it had 4psi at idle, 10 psi at 3,000 rpm, 12psi at 3,500rpm, and 15psi at 3,000 rpm.

I currently have the #102 bypass jet installed - I will put the #120 back in and see if I can get the pressures down a little bit.

Ultimately I would like to route the bypass oil up to the head....I hate just wasting the oil flow and would like to put it where it could do some good.  
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Dave
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Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #404 - 07/16/24 at 13:53:39
 
The engine is running really good.  I have not gone over 60mph and I have not done any full throttle trips through multiple gears - I have been running the engine with varying loads and rpm to help get the rings seated in.  I have opened up and closed the throttle to load the rings in both power and vacuum conditions.

The power is smooth and the engine is responsive.  At this point I don't know if it is any faster than the 95mm Wiseco - it does seem to be running about 20 degrees cooler head temperature at the left rear cylinder stud.  (I put the sender on that stud as it is the easiest to get to and doesn't have any oil under the washer like the left front does).
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