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ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips (Read 294 times)
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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #30 - 11/10/12 at 15:07:49
 




http://liliputing.com/2012/11/intels-nuc-mini-pc-coming-soon-for-about-300.html


This is what Intel wants to sell you now for $300 -- a bare bones box with no power supply, no cables, no systems memory, no hard drive or data storage and interestingly enough No Operating System.   And it still costs $300.   Fully equipped, such a casual user system will cost a good bit over $400.

The Intel system pulls 17 watts to run the processor, which is better than it has been but not down at ARM's 5-8 watts.  

And the ARM systems are counting all data storage devices and the power supply and all the other parts of the system in with their energy reporting as they come in the box with it or already mounted on the stick or little board
.   Android 4.x is the on board operating system which can be swapped out at the expense of a SD card to load your new OS of choice.

A single copy of MicroChoke Win8 RT will cost about as much as the little Android stick computers currently cost (with all the bits and pieces included) ....   Win x86 full version will cost even more.

Come the day when these little stick PCs are running big-LITTLE with a decent core count, I still don't think the price of the finished ARM computer on a stick is going to be over $100, complete with all the needed bits and pieces.   The chip prices of a mature big-LITTLE (when the next generation is rolling out, say) will be about what chips are now, since you are buying "space on the wafer and processing time" which will be quite similar "space & time" to what A10 chips take now.

And this will be a smooth operating, fast little device as Linux and Android are both running well now using single core chips at a 1 megahertz level and these new big-LITTLE will be around 2 to 2.5 gigahertz on the low end of the pool by then.

Don't discount the advantage of 32 bit fast light RISC code gives to ARM based products.

It wasn't by chance that Apple has made their current fortune running fast light 32 bit RISC code on phones, tablets and now laptops, they have done it both ways you know and you will see them go back to 100% fast light 32 bit RISC code inside the bigger products next year.
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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #31 - 11/11/12 at 21:03:41
 
 
Back to 64 bit ARM based supercomputers and rack processors for data centers.



http://technewspedia.com/nvidia-tesla-cgpus-future-will-be-based-in-denver/

http://technewspedia.com/boulder-the-future-microprocessor-nvidia-hpc-server/

NVIDA has now announced Boulder, which means that they are going into the supercomuter and data center business using Cortex A-57 based extensible processors.  This makes AMD and NVIDA (two canny computer companies) that are saying ARM Cortex A-57 can scale up to supercomputer status and save 50%-70% of direct energy costs (to run the processors) and a whopping 80% on the cooling of the data center itself.

The energy savings in the first 3 years buys all the new computer equipment.  A bean-picker's delight, this will be something that PAYS for itself inside 3-4 years, plus you get environmental tax credits for doing it (decreasing carbon counts and all).  

A 3 year ROI means this new use of the new 64 bit ARM chips will be a very very hot topic in the data center, and remarkably easy to implement since most data centers run on Linux anyway.

With these sorts of compelling energy savings Intel MUST respond in this data center arena as they currently own the data center business.

This business is as large as the desktop PC business when thought of as a "number of chips sold" market share.
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« Last Edit: 11/12/12 at 06:52:42 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #32 - 11/14/12 at 08:01:00
 

Back to APPLE for the future pathway news ....

http://www.cultofmac.com/191388/apples-chip-roadmap-quad-core-a6x-in-2013-64-...

Remember, APPLE has exclusivity agreements with ARM that says APPLE gets the new stuff a full year before anybody else sees it.  This is bad enough by itself, but what is making things worse is that early in that "first peek" year APPLE is running around signing up all the production capacity out there at the new required lower nanometer levels.  

APPLE actually produces these new chips for most of a year to get enough of them to do a major roll out of a new technology level "event".  They have to have enough product in the barn to sell MILLIONS of units on roll out day, much less the 10's of millions in the weeks following.   And occasionally APPLE does run short of their new chipsets, but not very often any more.

The only folks who can break this early production lock out are the ones with their own very modern fab plants that also have extra capacity past their production contracts with APPLE.  For example, Samsung is making the current APPLE S6 chipset, so right now APPLE and Samsung (Exynos) are the only ones shipping A-15 dual cores with everybody else who is shipping a A-15 product is having to us the Exynos dual core A-15 chipset.

Why is this?   ARM, well bribed by APPLE's lust for the latest and greatest has only released the new designs at the very lowest nanometer levels that APPLE can just barely reach.

The rest of the fab plants are struggling to meet the existing demand for larger nanometer chips and have not converted anything much to the 28 nanometer level required by A-15.  Some have stared their conversions, but chip capacity at 28 nanometer is going to be scarce through the rest of this year.  

20 nm?  Scarcer than hen's teeth ....

Another thing is the release of the 64 bit A-57 at 20 nanometers.  If I were a fab plant getting ready to dump 3.2 BILLION dollars into a new fab capacity, it would now have to be a new 20 nanometer or better type process, not a 28 nanometer process that I would have to ramp up into and out of inside one year.

So, by the "unplanned" 1 year early release of A-57 designs, ARM and APPLE have created strong turmoil in the business plans of lots of the phone space chip supplying companies.  

For example, TI is backing away from the race now, having just finished upgrading to something that is 1 generation back at this point in time.   They just spent a whole lot of money for ..... nothing, no competitive advantage at all.  When their A-15 comes out it will be an also ran, competing against Exynos chips that have been shipping for months and months.

A-15 and A-7 are now likely going to be skipped over by a lot of Far Eastern companies as they are attuned to the business well enough to see that they need to buy in as far in the future as they can.    They may honor existing contracts and buy the A-7 and A-15s that they already contracted for, but any free money they get will now be invested further forward.

A-15 and A-7 will also likely get skipped over by the knowledgeable phone and tablet based retail customers as they know the 64 bit chipsets are one year away from being in their hot little hands.

So, there currently isn't enough 28 nanometer fab capacity out there and no fab plant with a brain would be putting money into any brand new production capacity unless it was 20 nanometer or better.

Sneaky, huh?   Apple and Samsung get to own the A-15 wave for free whilst everyone else is chasing the 2 year in the  future target that has just been posted up on the board.

APPLE will still roll into 20 nanometer A-57 on time, driven by TSCM's brand new, totally filled & contracted 20nm processes that APPLE helped them to buy.   Samsung isn't supplying APPLE with their spare capacity of A-57, TSCM is.    Apple has also bought their own 20nm and better production lines that will be coming on board soon.

Phone space is going to be fragmented by this skipped generation of chips, some will be competing low end price-wise with quad core A-9 chipsets (at 40 nm) because that is the very best thing available at that production nanometer level.

AMD and NVIDA have now swung their bats at the 64 bit A-57 server market, as these chips will pull in enough money to make the investment worth their time.  This further distracts the phone space world, as a brand new whole untapped market just plopped in their laps and it has higher profit margins to boot, too ....

Look at Google, sold out through Christmas on their new phone, their new 10 tablet and their new Chrome OS laptop all due to not enough 28 nanometer production capacity to carry the load that people are putting on the 28 nm production system.   Apple avoids this error by locking up enough production capacity early on and producing enough chips in their "lead year" to do their main roll out event and subsequent sales.

Christmas will be an odd mix this year, with the tech goodies shipping with single core A-8s, dual and quad core A-9s and dual core A-15s all at the same time produced at four different nm levels.  

Next year will be no better, with 40 nm quad core A-9s holding the low end, 28nm quad core A-7s, dual and quad core 28nm A-15s (some will be big-LITTLE combo packs) with a smattering of the new 20nm A-57 64 bit chips on the high end of things.

Year after that, folks will quit buying anything that isn't 64 bit (assuming the 64 bit ARM supporting OS versions come out in a timely fashion).

People are like that at the switch over from 32 to 64 bit on computer stuff, I am typing on a PC right now that was bought at the last PC 32 to 64 bit switch over point.

Smiley
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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #33 - 11/14/12 at 15:56:25
 
 
http://liliputing.com/2012/11/texas-instruments-to-eliminate-1700-jobs-in-shi...

I mentioned the fact Texas Instruments has stopped their chase in the cell phone arena.

TI is a cell phone chip maker who just spent billions on getting to their OMAP 5 Cortex A-15 28 nanometer chipsets, now the game has moved to 20 nanometer inside the same year that they just now became competitive.

TI has just said "screw this" and are going to use the 28nm process they just bought to make embedded product boards and chipsets for the embedded market, basically saying they are good in that market with what they have for the near future any way.  Margins are higher in embedded than in the phone market anyway (much smaller market though).

Downsizing the cell phone and tablet design and marketing groups (1,700 jobs) will help take the sting out of being "too late to market" again in the cell phone world.

Tongue       Ouch ....

We keep saying the phone market is relentless and it moves VERY fast, but TI, AMD and Intel are showing that they can't keep up in the most basic ways possible, by stalling, quitting & or moving out of the market.

And APPLE and ARM are cooperating in ways that make it very hard for anyone to stay up with APPLE, including APPLE's chip supplying partners.

APPLE changes out partners with each new wave of ARM chips, one producing now while the other frantically tools up for his turn in the barrel next year.
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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #34 - 11/22/12 at 20:57:00
 

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/139455-cortex-a57-takes-arm-to-64-bit-wi...

I've brought up the point that A53 & A57 got short stroked into next year by Apple and Arm, sorta upsetting the apple carts of quite a few of the other players.  
The circle denotes where we are right now.





This article helps explain why this move was seen as "necessary" by ARM.  The 64 bit addressing opened up the server realms, allowed AMD to hop into the hot tub and prevented Intel from having their neat new Bay Trail rabbit out of the hat be anything other than "oh, Intel is trying to do one too".  Trying to claim your new dual core 22nm atom chip is "hot stuff" is tough to do inside a whole crowd of yet hotter octacore 20nm & 28nm ARM chips with better graphics.   Takes the wind right out of a marketing campaign, it does ....  

This might teach Intel that the "early classic vaporwear" release of the first thought of a new product like it was a real product, the sort of stuff that Wintel did for so many years, actually puts the ARM world inside their reaction time space for rolling out a real competing/beating product.
 
 Cheesy




In late 2013 the very fastest chips will all be the new 20 nanometer 64 bit chips, but the popular Christmas tablets, Chromebooks and such will be the very top end of the A15 28nm era, the octa-core (4 A-15, 4 A-7) Samsungs, etc. with Mali 678 (12 core) graphics.  Watch those graphics cores, they can do computation duties also .....   (APPLE's favorite trick)

This is one buss slot of a 64 bit ARM rack server by Calexda




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« Last Edit: 11/24/12 at 12:23:06 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: ARM Cortex A50 series 64 bit chips
Reply #35 - 11/25/12 at 21:52:16
 
 
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-might-apple-move-macs-to-arm-proce...

Interesting article that explains several things I once KNEW but had forgotten in the intervening years.

ARM was a consortium formed in 1990 by several early NON-INTEL companies to design RISC chips.   Acorn, VLSI Technology, and Apple were the first three and IBM joined up for a while when Apple was heavy into IBM's PowerPC chip systems.

APPLE ALREADY OWNS ~40% of ARM, from just about the very beginning ....     Is this a controlling share, technically no, but it could be if APPLE wanted it to be as ARM is publicly traded and for a few hundred million the necessary 11% could be purchased.

Can APPLE swing ARM around at will?   Seems so, as this last "bring A-57 forward by 2-3 years" is an amazing scheduling leap which will benefit APPLE and ARM at the detriment of several other players such as Texas Instrument.

Will APPLE dump Intel by 2014?   Planning seems to be available to do so, since A-57 64 bit designs already exist for 8 and 16 core 64 bit server chips that would swing Mali 678 12 core graphics .... 3 times denser/faster than the Retina display is today.

(all of which would be somewhat over kill in an individual PC I would think but it would still nice marketing-wise as APPLE does love their big "latest and greatest" introductions, now don't they?)

Why plunk an overkill 8 to 16 core ARM A-57 server SOC into an APPLE desktop pc?  
PURE LOWER COST is the answer.
Even at APPLE's best price from Intel a good Intel desktop chip BY ITSELF costs over $150 while even a super duper octacore A-57 will cost $50-$60 even if APPLE has to buy it as overproduction from TSCM or Samsung or AMD instead of using their own home built production process.   Plus, with the ARM SOC you get your graphics baked in with it on the SOC.   Intel requires a third party video system which costs more than $50-$60 all by itself.

And now that we know who already owns 40% of ARM, APPLE's ability to get the good stuff a year or so early makes even more sense.

Now, what could ARM do to pacify the folks who are going to lose years of A-15/A-7 big little run time because of their little gimmick schedule move with APPLE?  

Well, for good will they could give them the A-57/A-53 designs for the price difference between what they paid for the A-15 stuff they will never get to run and the current license price for the new stuff that was just rolled forward.

If they don't do this voluntarily, a court will wind up making them do it anyway as reasonable damages, but if they force a court to do it there will be NO goodwill involved, just a big black eye.


=======================


BTW   news is that the Bay Trail chip, the newly named Intel "rabbit out of the hat" chip for mid 2013 is a high performance high power draw dual core ATOM chipset that is supposed to make APPLE want to stay with Intel.          

....... really, how is that again ?????

High performance high power draw dual core ATOM   vs   low power draw HIGHER PERFORMANCE quad core, hepta core or octacore or higher ARM SERVER SOC with 12 core graphics already on it that we already own 40% of and just bought processes to build it internally AND have backed up our play with TSCM, AMD and Samsung lining them up as backup producers.

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