SuzukiSavage.com - "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange

Charon

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #15 - 09/27/12 at 20:55:14

Oldfeller does not believe that a vacuum petcock can ever work correctly, and recommends that they be switched out as soon as possible regardless of age or condition. With that in mind, it is indeed possible that vacuum petcocks can fail and their failure can produce odd symptoms. The faint smell of gas in the vacuum line is, to my mind, normal since that vacuum line connects to the intake manifold which has a mixture of gas and air present whenever the engine is running. If liquid gasoline is present in the vacuum line there is cause to worry. If the vacuum line is damaged (cracked, dry rotted, loose) air will leak into the manifold and upset the mixture, while the loss of vacuum may cause the petcock to pass less fuel. If the petcock diaphragm is damaged it will allow gasoline to pass into the vacuum line and manifold, also upsetting mixture. The Serobot test plugs the vacuum port at the manifold, eliminating any leakage problems, and forces the petcock open (PRIme position), eliminating any vacuum petcock problems. If the bike then runs correctly, it can be assumed the petcock or vacuum line was causing the original problems. If it still doesn't run right, the problem can be assumed to be fuel flow or carburetor.

Hey, OF - did I get that right?

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Eschew obfuscation.

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justin_o_guy2

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What happened?

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #16 - 09/27/12 at 21:26:46

So, IF the petcock diaphragm is messed up, a guy could take a jug with a lid, put 2 pieces of tubing into the lid, & put a low vacuum on the petcock & these things should happen,

Number One, Its gonna lose vacuum

& Number B Gonna get gas in the jug.

IDK how much vacuum stops being a "Test" & starts being enough to wreck the diaphragm.

I wish someone would hook up a vac gauge,,strap it on the bars & ride & see what the vac is at speed..

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #17 - 09/27/12 at 21:29:01

Charon wrote on 09/27/12 at 20:55:14:

Oldfeller does not believe that a vacuum petcock can ever work correctly once they begin to show failure symptoms and recommends that they be switched out as soon as possible to cut down on road stops and frustration. With that in mind, it is indeed possible that vacuum petcocks can fail and their failure can produce odd symptoms. The faint smell of gas in the vacuum line is, to my mind, normal since that vacuum line connects to the intake manifold which has a mixture of gas and air present whenever the engine is running. If liquid gasoline is present in the vacuum line there is cause to worry. If the vacuum line is damaged (cracked, dry rotted, loose) air will leak into the manifold and upset the mixture, while the loss of vacuum may cause the petcock to pass less fuel. If the petcock diaphragm is damaged it will allow gasoline to pass into the vacuum line and manifold, also upsetting mixture. The Serobot test plugs the vacuum port at the manifold, eliminating any leakage problems, and forces the petcock open (PRIme position), eliminating any vacuum petcock problems. If the bike then runs correctly, it can be assumed the petcock or vacuum line was causing the original problems. If it still doesn't run right, the problem can be assumed to be fuel flow or carburetor.

I used to think that if they tested good then they were OK, then Verslagen and Lou and Dave began taking the one way valves apart and then they casually blew my mind when they pointed out there IS NO PRIME PASSAGE, it is just a lump of plastic that actuates through a little spring dingus to lift the vacuum seat and valve giving you "bypass flow".

Then Lou mentioned some of the rubber pieces were turning into bubble gum and my confidence in the Serowbot Test being able to sort good 'uns from sorry ones took a big hit.

Hey, OF - did I get that right?

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Routy

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #18 - 09/28/12 at 03:13:04

Quote:
I wish someone would hook up a vac gauge,,strap it on the bars & ride & see what the vac is at speed..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long ago I did, and I posted the results several times.
I remember having severe needle fluctuation problem, which I solved by inserting a very small (# drilled) orfice inline.
And I do remember it showing very little (hardly audible) vacuum at WOT. Which is when I conceeded that a worn out engine could suffer fuel starvation at hi speeds.
What I don't believe is that the diaphrams in these petcocks give any more problem than any other diaphram working in any other part of any other fuel system out there. Or at least I haven't seen any pics of deteriorated diaphram material.

I have 2 old petcocks here, 1 is from an '85, and the diaphram material itself is not deteriorated at all. What happened to that one is......from all appearences, it suffered from a "sucked diaphram".....meaning the screws were not tight, and it ripped the diaphram out the corner of the screw hole. I don't know how common that is, but it made me check the screws for tightness on my own bike.
The other one is supposedly a good one that was replaced out of pure "petcock paranoia" !
For OF......
While I do conceed that the vac PCs give more problems than I once thought, I also believe that "petcock paranoia" is still very rampant here,
to the point of causing most of the Raptor change outs.
Not surprising that most of the posts w/ fuel related problems anymore, have already "Raptorized" only because of "paranoia"

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Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)

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J C Stokes Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 159	Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Reply #19 - 09/28/12 at 04:05:10 Wasn't there a post about some of these replacement non stock air filters blocking off part of the carb?
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Cavi Mike Serious Thumper Offline Thumper n00b Posts: 1005 Rochester, NY Gender:	Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Reply #20 - 09/28/12 at 04:28:06 Mr.Orange wrote on 09/27/12 at 19:15:38: only mod I myself added was the filter. so your saying get rid of stock petcock and check diaphragm? What kind of filter? Wouldn't be the one I mentioned in this thread, would it? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1347609265
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #21 - 09/28/12 at 05:51:09

Routy wrote on 09/28/12 at 03:13:04:

Quote:
I wish someone would hook up a vac gauge,,strap it on the bars & ride & see what the vac is at speed..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long ago I did, and I posted the results several times.
I remember having severe needle fluctuation problem, which I solved by inserting a very small (# drilled) orfice inline. Routy and Verslagen both have modified their stock petcocks to try to make them work better. Each saw needs and addressed them.
And I do remember it showing very little (hardly audible) vacuum at WOT. Which is when I conceeded that a worn out engine could suffer fuel starvation at hi speeds. Yep, and heavily modded bikes will have even less vac suction and also be asking for about 10-20% more gasoline at full wrist speeds than a stock Savage will ask.
What I don't believe is that the diaphrams in these petcocks give any more problem than any other diaphram working in any other part of any other fuel system out there. Or at least I haven't seen any pics of deteriorated diaphram material.

I have 2 old petcocks here, 1 is from an '85, and the diaphram material itself is not deteriorated at all. What happened to that one is......from all appearences, it suffered from a "sucked diaphram".....meaning the screws were not tight, and it ripped the diaphram out the corner of the screw hole. I don't know how common that is, but it made me check the screws for tightness on my own bike.
The other one is supposedly a good one that was replaced out of pure "petcock paranoia" !
For OF......
While I do conceed that the vac PCs give more problems than I once thought, I also believe that "petcock paranoia" is still very rampant here,
to the point of causing most of the Raptor change outs.
Not surprising that most of the posts w/ fuel related problems anymore, have already "Raptorized" only because of "paranoia"

Well, petcock paranoia is also known as proactive replacement or as "preventive maintenance" in the industrial plant world. They replace early failure mode parts as soon as they show signs of impending failure during normal maintenance times so as to prevent unplanned downtime and loss of production.

Take this thinking and apply it to the Savage. You have a complex vac petcock system that is known to fail (what, 6 known failure modes now with Lou's bubble gum rubberitis). The early failure symptoms are well understood (bike "running out of gas" when it has plenty of gas) and the replacement system is identified, inexpensive and the downsides of that system are well understood.

When it first shows its ass why wouldn't you PM it?

Your "downtime" on a Savage puts your butt at risk in traffic with the engine stopping on you -- who wants that?

===========================

Also, please note that the folks who like the vac petcock system the most are running stock bikes with stock air boxes and stock restrictive air filters.

If you are a performance mods person, consider that you have lowered your system vacuum level with your air filter mods and you have increased your gas flow requirements at the same time. This puts a double whammy on the vac petcock system so you can understand when I say "We are doing it to ourselves when we go after the last 10 hp that Suzuki wouldn't give us."

A Raptor petcock should be considered a normal part of the performance mod package.

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Mr.Orange

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #22 - 09/30/12 at 18:09:33

well outside if all the tests, I went ahead and replaced the spark plug and it still struggled. drained and got some fresh gas on top of cleaning the carb so well I wouldnt object to my children eating off it. fired her up and it is scary how well it runs now. 2 separate people outside this site suggested it could be water in my fuel. so bad gas was the culprit. suppose it could have been worse.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange Reply #23 - 09/30/12 at 18:20:17 I gotta know how long before it started acting up was it that you put the gas in? How far did ya ride after adding that gas?
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #24 - 09/30/12 at 23:12:58

Justin, click on his name, go to the bottom of his personal information and read his last 25 posts. Check his dates between having rust in his gas tank and this current "unknown cause" issue.

A "clockwork Orange" (every few days he's back with a new one, our Mr. Orange)

8/22 stripped header bolt
8/25 got upset at Justin and Cavi disagreeing on how to use threaded rod
9/04 moved his front fender
9/06 took apart his starter switch
9/12 broke his shifter rod
9/23 poured rust out of his gas tank (never did put in a pleated paper fuel filter from what I can see ??)
9/24 poured water out of his under the tank connector
9/26 started this current new thread with NO previous information shared.
10/01 discovered he has water in his gas .... hmmmm ??

Mr. Orange's Troubles is the title of your very own permanent thread now -- you will post all your new issues inside that one thread from now on, so people will KNOW WHAT YOUR PAST TROUBLES WERE.

This will keep you from wasting folks time by your NOT telling them the background story up front and your habit of making them drag it out of you one little bit of information at a time.

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mpescatori

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Re: "Acting Up" Like a Clockwork Orange
Reply #25 - 10/01/12 at 01:58:54

Mr.Orange wrote on 09/25/12 at 18:12:00:

my bike is acting like its having trouble getting gas. did petcock vac test, tried new vacuum line, the carb, fuel filter, and petcock filter are spotless. so now what?

I was about to say "did you try the gas station?" Cheesy

, then I read the rest of the thread.

I had similar problems with a previous thumper (not a Suzuki) which had points&condenser ignition.
It turned out the points were set much too retarded (sparked at TDC or later - "retarded" is not an insult in these circumstances).

If you fitted a cone filter and the bike reacted this way, it could well be the air/fuel mixture is now too lean.

You should consider enriching the main jet by one, perhaps two steps further.
This means that if you're riding with a #150 main jet, you should consider upgrading to a #152.5 or a #155.

If you can't do that, no problem, go to the dealer and have their mechanics do it for you. Jets are .35 cents each, or thereabouts.

If you think this is all too complicated...
...have you considered buying an EFI bike and leaving her stock ? Huh

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Maurizio Pescatori, Esq.
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Mikuni BST40, K&N filter, Stage2 cam, Verslagen tensioner, Sportster muff, 120 proof moonshine, Pirelli MT 66 tourers... and a chain conversion too !

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