SuzukiSavage.com - Counter-steering explained...

Jeff Jopling Junior Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 65	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #15 - 09/25/12 at 07:53:04 Thanks for the explanation guys.
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Gyrobob

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #16 - 09/25/12 at 08:47:48

Dave Sisk wrote on 09/25/12 at 07:10:38:

Gyrobob wrote on 09/25/12 at 05:11:00:

Here's another analogy. You are driving along in your cage. You feel like being a cool guy today, so you are holding the steering wheel with only one hand at the bottom of the wheel.

You want to turn left. Do you have to analyze the situation, or do you just subconsciously move your hand to the right?

Yes, but only because it's already second-nature. Maybe a better analogy is backing a trailer up. Grin

Until you've gotten a lot of practice at it, it takes some conscious thought to point the trailer the right direction in reverse...you have to turn the steering wheel the opposite way, and it's not intuitive the first several times you do it.

Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders...but not for some of us newbies. We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic.

Dave

Wrong. Yes it is second nature to move your hand at the bottom of the steering wheel to the right to turn the wheel to the left. Same with countersteering. Most folks operating two-wheelers on this planet have never ever thought about countersteering but they do just fine, and lots of them race around like maniacs, dragging footpegs and just being hooligans in general. Yet, they countersteer all the time without knowing anything about it.

Backing a trailer up is an invalid analogy because the steering controls in that situation require constant analysis, everything is backwards. Turn the wheel to the right to move the ass end of the car to the right to move the nose of the trailer to the right to move the ass end of the trailer to the left to turn the whole shebang left. This has nothing to do with countersteering because countersteering happens every single time you do anything other than go straight.

"Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders" It is second nature for anyone who does not crash in the first ten feet of their first motorcycle ride. If they are balancing the bike (not falling over) they ARE countersteering. That is the only way you can keep the tires underneath the CG of the bike.

"Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders...but not for some of us newbies. We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic." This statement shows you still do not understand. OR,.. maybe you are just meaning something else! Maybe what you mean is to deliberately yank on the handlebar in one direction to see if the bike tilts in the other. I dunno.

One way to get screwed up (maybe even hurt yourself) when riding around pondering countersteering is to ponder countersteering while you are riding around. IOW, if you think about something you do instinctively, you might mess up the instinctive thought. Remember the scene in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" when Strother Martin tells Robert Redford to demonstrate whether or not he can shoot a gun?

Here's another thought,... Do you actually think that if you are out riding around, and you happen to forget about countersteering for a while, that you are NOT countersteering as you are riding around?

Oh,.. and one more question,.. How do you do this? "We have to consciously practice it, THEN it becomes second-nature and automatic." I'm curious. After 52 years and several hundred thousand miles of bike riding, I'd like to think I could still learn some new stuff.

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Kilgore Trout

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #17 - 09/25/12 at 09:06:52

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Unfortunately that couldn't be further from the truth. When you weigh 1/3 of the bike, your weight shifting only has so much effect and the faster you go, the less of an effect your weight has. After that, you need to be very proactive with the bars. If all you're doing is putting around town you may get away with the weight-shift technique but when it comes time to navigate a real curve at real speeds, you better be ready to force those bars the wrong way or you're going off the road.

Actually, Mike, if you go back and look at my message, you'll find that at no point did I make any mention of shifting one's weight around to initiate a turn. What I did say is that if you know how to ride a bicycle, you already know how to counter steer. You steer a bicycle properly by counter steering, not by throwing your weight around. In fact, anyone who's ever ridden a mountain bike on the loose stuff knows that there's no quicker way to go down than to get your center of mass all out of kilter with your lean angle.

I stand by my original statements, which are: 1) If one knows how to ride a bicycle and/or has ridden a motorcycle in anything other than a straight line going faster than a couple mph, one has already demonstrated the ability to counter steer 2) Steering a motorcycle is fundamentally similar to steering a bicycle. One only has to make some adjustments, usually in the timing/location of the turn-in point, to account for the larger mass of the motorcycle and the higher speed that a motorcycle typically travels at.

We're never going to get better at it by talking about it, guys. Why don't we just go ride and give it a rest?

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Dave Sisk

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #18 - 09/25/12 at 09:22:09

Quote:

"Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders" It is second nature for anyone who does not crash in the first ten feet of their first motorcycle ride. If they are balancing the bike (not falling over) they ARE countersteering. That is the only way you can keep the tires underneath the CG of the bike.

I have to disagree. When you turn the bike at low speed, you don't counter-steer...you turn the handlebars the same direction as the turn. I've ridden more than 10 feet at 5-10mph without crashing and I didn't counter-steer to turn the bike. Wink

At a higher-speed (depending on the mass of the bike and rider), then you have to counter-steer.

But hey, this isn't worth debating...you ride your way and I'll ride my way. Wink

Dave

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #19 - 09/25/12 at 09:34:56

Dave Sisk wrote on 09/25/12 at 09:22:09:

Quote:

"Counter-steering a bike is already second-nature for most riders" It is second nature for anyone who does not crash in the first ten feet of their first motorcycle ride. If they are balancing the bike (not falling over) they ARE countersteering. That is the only way you can keep the tires underneath the CG of the bike.

I have to disagree. When you turn the bike at low speed, you don't counter-steer...you turn the handlebars the same direction as the turn. I've ridden more than 10 feet at 5-10mph without crashing and I didn't counter-steer to turn the bike. Wink

At a higher-speed (depending on the mass of the bike and rider), then you have to counter-steer.

But hey, this isn't worth debating...you ride your way and I'll ride my way. Wink

Dave

Well.....at low speed I agree.....if the wheels aren't spinning the steering input goes in the direction the bike is falling. I think this is one of the things that makes learning to ride a bicycle hard. It is learning how to transition between steering toward the lean at low speeds.....and at higher speeds the steering input controls the lean. I suppose most of us can remember that wild handlebar thrashing that went on when we were learning to ride our first bicycle!

On my trials bike the direction of travel and turning is completely controlled by leaning the bike, pressure on the footpegs, and balance.......and for those that are really good by hopping the front or rear wheel around.

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #20 - 09/25/12 at 09:55:19

I have to disagree. When you turn the bike at low speed, you don't counter-steer...you turn the handlebars the same direction as the turn.

Wrong. To start the turn you countersteer. You just don't understand this yet. Yes, when established in a turn, the bars are slightly turned in the direction of the turn, but when you want to stop turning what do you do? Do you tweak the bars in the direction of the turn, or do you turn away from the turn. DON'T THINK ABOUT IT! You'll kill yourself.

The part you seem to have trouble grasping is how to enter or exit a turn. It doesn't matter, though, if you can grasp it or not. If you have crashed yet, you are countersteering properly to enter and exit the turns.

If you can simply keep the bike upright in a straight line, you are countersteering because if the bike leans to the left, without even thinking about it, you tweak the bars to the left which immediately starts the bike leaning to the right.

Maybe we have different definitions of countersteering.

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Dave Sisk Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 163 Raleigh, NC Gender:	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #21 - 09/25/12 at 10:25:14 Quote: Wrong. To start the turn you countersteer. At a low speed, no you do not. Unless physics works different in your little world than it does in the rest of the universe. Quote: Maybe we have different definitions of countersteering. Ya think? Let's leave it that, shall we? Dave
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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #22 - 09/25/12 at 10:33:29

Riding at very low speed does not mean there would be different physics. It is still the same. Maybe someone feels it really is different to usual speeds but it is not. It's still the same, did I mention this already? Maybe one uses the unsafe state, waits until the bike wants to fall to the right direction and keeps it nearly upright then by turning the handlebar in the direcion of the curve. But only to keep the bike and himself from falling..... This also is countersteering for all two-wheelers in line.
Until he gets the opportunity to follow the bike in the curve it just wants to (and the rider either!) then it just feels like not counter steering. The moments before that happens it really is countersteering.

Depending of the bike's construction (weight, speed, CoG, fork angles ) you sometimes have to back the bike in the curve because it wants to fall inside. This has nothing to do with initiating a turn by countersteering (if made consciously or instinctively does not matter).

And that's the fact most kids are struggling on when they going to learn to ride a bicycle. The fewest are told about countersteering, they just have to learn on try and error, lots of plaster applied and some weeping.

But, I should not tell anything about it, I am riding a sidecar, haa haa Cheesy

(actually as well an usual Savage and a bicycle. My brain is able to handle all that stuff, as long as God blesses me)

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Greg Serious Thumper Offline Molon Labe Posts: 1251 Southeast PA, uSA Gender:	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #23 - 09/25/12 at 10:39:15 Dave Sisk wrote on 09/25/12 at 07:03:12: I agree the simply way to think of it is "push right turn right...push left turn left". Just how I was taught many moons ago. After a few miles you don't need to remember, it just happens.
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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #24 - 09/25/12 at 11:43:21

On the MTP that I Instruct with, we teach during slow speed manuvers (i.e. walking pace or slower with cllutch kept in friction zone) you turn the handlebars in the direction you want to point the bike ... left turn crank bars over to the left & vice versa.

This past weekend when coming home on my Bike I decided to experiment with countersteering. Rounding a slight left sweeper and taking my left hand off the bar, I pulled on the right bar with my right hand ... it had the same effect as pushing on the left bar and pulled the front wheel slightly off camber to the right which initiated a left lean causing the Bike to turn left!

I don't advocate a newb doing this though ... but the physics is rather cool! Wink

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Gyrobob Serious Thumper Offline Posers ain't motorcyclists Posts: 2571 Newnan, GA Gender:	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #25 - 09/25/12 at 13:06:38 At a low speed, no you do not. Unless physics works different in your little world than it does in the rest of the universe. Wrong. If you are not moving the point where the tires contact the earth, and keeping that point underneath the CG of the motorcycle, you will fall over. This is called countersteering.
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RidgeRunner13 Serious Thumper Offline haulin' the groceries! Posts: 649 Mustang Island, Texas Gender:	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #26 - 09/25/12 at 13:16:54 This whole thread reminds me of something my Daddy used to say: I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you!
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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #27 - 09/25/12 at 13:17:12

I don't want to join the debate, but Perry - I got those same lessons in my safety course. Another thing they did to demonstrate push-to-turn was to have you sit on the bike facing forward. They would put one foot on either side of the front wheel to lock it in place, and then have you put your feet on the pegs and push on either side of the bars. You realize pretty quick that when you push left, you go left. It was a cool demonstration that definitely helped a few people to feel the physics safely, even if they couldn't understand it.

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Dave Sisk

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Re: Counter-steering explained...
Reply #28 - 09/25/12 at 13:30:48

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Wrong. If you are not moving the point where the tires contact the earth, and keeping that point underneath the CG of the motorcycle, you will fall over. This is called countersteering.

No, it's not. That's not what we're even talking about. That's not called "counter-steering"...that's called "balancing". Grin

Dave

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ToesNose Serious Thumper Offline Pardon me, do you have Hot Sauce? Posts: 1993 Mooresville, NC Gender:	Re: Counter-steering explained... Reply #29 - 09/25/12 at 13:33:40 Gyroscopic effects which cause the need for counter- steering on two wheeled vehicles kick in at 12Mph.
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