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Oil changing question (Read 979 times)
Charon
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Re: Oil changing question
Reply #75 - 09/09/12 at 07:32:57
 
I had not considered the possibility that AMSOIL might have avoided testing oils that outperform its own oil, or for that matter testing them and omitting the results from its paper.

Tests such as those are attempts to reproduce in the laboratory some of the results from the "real world." The lubricants and the machinery in which those lubes are used form a complex system with a hell of a large number of variables. Tests attempt to do in a short time in easily reproducible circumstances what might take years to discover in the field. As such, their results are limited and subject to a lot of interpretation.

Reciprocating internal combustion engines all have one characteristic in that they all wash a small amount of unburned fuel past the rings into the crankcase, where that fuel contaminates the lubricating oil. Some of the fuel is completely unburned; some partially burned. Gasoline engines, once warmed up, usually have oil temperatures high enough to evaporate away most of the gasoline, reducing the contamination. Diesel fuel requires a considerably higher temperature to evaporate, so most of it probably remains in the oil. Both gasoline and diesel engines produce water as a result of combustion and some of the water ends up in the oil. Both also produce soot, which is particles of unburned carbon, some of which ends up in the oil. Water combines with all sorts of stuff in the exhaust. Oxides of nitrogen form various nitric and nitrous acids; oxides of sulfur form sulphuric and sulphurous acids; other stuff in either the fuel or the oil form other corrosives. The TBN (Total Base Number) is a number representing alkalinity, which helps neutralize those acids. A greater TBN is said to neutralize more acids, allowing a longer oil change interval.

The comments about "natural combustion deposits" make me think in the same terms as seasoning a frying pan. But the only places where I have seen those "natural combustion deposits" have been places such as the head and the top of the piston, in ring grooves, and other places where they are considered undesirable. I have never seen them on the walls of the cylinder, where they are mechanically scraped off every time the rings pass. And that is the only place where they might even conceivably aid in improving compression.

Edited to add: On further thought, those "natural combustion deposits" actually will increase compression over time. They form a layer atop the piston and inside the other parts of the combustion chamber. That layer mechanically reduces combustion chamber volume, which in turn will increase the compression ratio.
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« Last Edit: 09/09/12 at 11:33:48 by Charon »  

Eschew obfuscation.

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Oil changing question
Reply #76 - 09/09/12 at 10:27:33
 
& truckers get a million miles on them, & cars run 300,000 pretty regularly now, & when we were kids, a car with 100,000 on it was considered Used Up..

& some of Charons post pointed out a few of the things engines are assaulted by that makes the fact that they run more than a few hundred miles amazing to me,,I guess thats part of why I am so enthralled by reciprocating engines. A slug, racing up & down in a hole, with special made Rings that scrape on the wall & they do that for years & years & millions & millions of cycles & they dont just grab & break or gall together.. I am A Mazed at how long an engine lasts,
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bill67
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Re: Oil changing question
Reply #77 - 09/09/12 at 13:40:07
 
JOG does the diesel fuel help lube the cylinder walls at all?
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william h krumpen
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Re: Oil changing question
Reply #78 - 09/09/12 at 17:15:36
 
 
Bill, when you look at Amisol's published diesel tests (top chart here)

http://www.synzilla.com/testimonials/Amsoil_vs_Shell_Rotella_T_5w-40_Syntheti...

it shows that small percentages of diesel fuel getting loose in the system is a STRONG DETRIMENT to all of the various oil's viscosity performances.   Unburned fuel is a detriment in all engines, not a helper.

Gasoline contamination also hurts oil performance and it lowers viscosity too, most UOA's report gasoline contamination if found as it is a concern.

Neither gasoline nor diesel fuel are considered "helpful" to their engine oil.

Remember though, Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel fuel.  Check out the pumps at your local gas station -- spilled diesel on the pump nozzle holder doesn't even evaporate when the sun hits it.  

Gasoline that does get into your engine oil does evaporate out of your sump and into your blow-by system by way of the "huff" tube to the air box.   The gasoline in your oil does evaporate sooner than the water that also gets into your oil.   Both do evaporate when your bike sump gets up to full operating temperature.
(over positive 212o F boiling point for the water, only 90-100 degrees boiling point for the gasoline)    
Our sump gets up to 220-250o at road speeds.

This is why short stop and go driving that doesn't heat your engine up all the way is considered bad for your car's engine and it requires the shorter "extreme duty" oil change interval that your car manufacturer lists in your owner's manual.


=====================


The fact that Rotella is designed to keep it's viscosity range when contaminated with fuel isn't a bad thing for our Savages.    

It means is is NOT LIKE the modern MA2 bike oils that ARE allowed to drop out of viscosity range after one (1) nozzle viscosity test run when they are virgin & uncontaminated -- Rotella won't drop out of viscosity range even when it gets 2% fuel contaminated even after being tested TWICE as long as normally required on the harsher Kurt Oban test (Amisol data).  

UOA tests commonly show Rotella to still be hanging in there on viscosity grade at the end of some pretty extended drain intervals on touring bikes.


=====================


If you guys are arguing that large TBN numbers make up some sort of undefined cylinder wall problem, then you are going to LOVE the new Calcium/Magnesium additive packages that are coming out in the new SN car oils.   (same stuff that used to be considered "detergent" and "buffer" for acidification)  

These C/M additive packages will show up in MA2 bike oils soon enough as there is very little difference between SM/SN grade and the new JASO MA2 grade (and some bike oil bottles are now listing both sets of standards on their bottles).   MA2 bike oils will quickly become a simple bottle change on the same car oil bottling line for some suppliers

(Lucas and Suzuki come to mind).

These newer SN oils don't have much ZDDP in them at all (500-700 ppm max showing up on VOAs) instead they may well start to boost organic C/M levels up to new, never before seen high levels to try to do the job ZDDP used to do.   These oils would certainly have your cylinder wall "issue" if it ever existed.   SN car oils and all the new cars should have the issue right now if it exists.

Wink  Time will tell though, people do discover new stuff all the time.  

What will be sad is when our newbies put these new bike oils into their Savages and munch up their upper ends and then come here asking for advice about all the persistent "ticking" and "tapping" sounds they can't valve clearance adjust away.  

Heck, we have two of them on the RSD top page right now, now don't we?

Or worse, the dealership does the oil thing for them using MA2 Suzuki oil ..... and charges them big service bucks to boot for permanently screwing up their bikes.
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« Last Edit: 09/09/12 at 19:30:12 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: Oil changing question
Reply #79 - 09/09/12 at 20:23:37
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/09/12 at 17:15:36:
 

If you guys are arguing that large TBN numbers make up some sort of undefined cylinder wall problem, then you are going to LOVE the new Calcium/Magnesium additive packages that are coming out in the new SN car oils.   (same stuff that used to be considered "detergents" and "buffers" for anti-acidification)  

These C/M additive packages will show up in MA2 bike oils soon enough as there is very little difference between SM/SN grade and the new JASO MA2 grade (and some bike oil bottles are now listing both sets of standards on their bottles).   MA2 bike oils will quickly become a simple bottle change on the same car oil bottling line for some suppliers

(Lucas and Suzuki come to mind).

These newer SN oils don't have much ZDDP in them at all (400-600 ppm max showing up on VOAs) instead they may well start to boost organic C/M levels up to new, never before seen high levels to try to do the job ZDDP used to do.   These oils would certainly have your cylinder wall "issue" if it ever existed.   SN car oils and all the new cars using it should have the issue right now if it exists.





Now, here are several VOA sheets illustrating the points made above.    

and only one of these is a bike oil, so don't get tripped up by that, just ignore any weight/viscosity data mentioned and pick by your add packs for the issues noted

FIRST QUESTION -- Which oil should have the "excess detergent cylinder wall" problem (if it exists)?

SECOND QUESTION -- Which oil would you rather use in your Savage?

Oil #1


Oil #2
Blackstone Labs
Sample Date: 03/11/04

"Nothing too unusual showed up in this virgin Mobil oil sample. Note the slight presence of sodium, which will also be in your oil samples, should you choose to use this oil in your engines. The viscosity is just a little higher than our standard range, but it's still okay. The TBN read 10.8."

Measured/ Universal Average
Aluminum.........2.................1
Chromium.........0.................0
Iron.............2.................1
Copper...........0.................0
Lead.............0.................0
Tin..............0.................0
Molybdenum......79................35
Nickel...........0.................0
Manganese........0.................0
Silver...........0.................0
Titanium.........0.................0
Potassium........0.................0
Boron..........195................57
Silicon..........6.................4
Sodium...........6.................3
Calcium.......2540..............2082
Magnesium.......16...............102
Phosphorus....1282...............888
Zinc..........1613..............1003
Baruim...........0.................0



Oil #3



And lastly, Oil #4  the most modern oil of the group is a current 5w30 SN grade car oil

ALUMINUM 0
CHROMIUM 0
IRON 1
COPPER 0
LEAD 0
TIN 0
MOLYBDENUM 2
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 0
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 1
BORON 7
SILICON 2
SODIUM 0
CALCIUM 1813
MAGNESIUM 1324
PHOSPHORUS 412
ZINC 490
BARIUM 0
TBN 7.5
SUS VISCOSITY @ 210 ºF 63.0
Flashpoint F 420

(note: this last one gets "disbelieved" a bit by the Bob folks as they really can't see how it could possibly work and they are waiting for paired VOA & UOA reports -- it is a completely new ad pack technology to them)



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« Last Edit: 09/09/12 at 23:21:56 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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