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18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES (Read 735 times)
teabowl13
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #15 - 08/11/12 at 16:06:11
 
YEAH! That looks good...
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #16 - 08/11/12 at 16:11:33
 
yeah, either cut the heads off the nails or make them slip fit into the block.
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John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #17 - 08/11/12 at 18:18:40
 
Instead of nails, maybe wood dowels of a diameter to match rim holes, say 1/4 inch.

I'm going to disassemble the stock 19 inch wheel and use those spokes for a trial. Right now I'm painting the spokes and rim so I can establish a lacing pattern. Before I take it apart, I'll measure the hub left/right offset. That way I can use the original hub and won't have to reinvent the.....wheel (You saw that coming, didn't you?) Funny, the tire is a 10/90 x 19 tubeless, seems weird for a spoked wheel.

I'm concerned about the bend of the spoke heads. I want to be able to tell the people at Buchanan's,  "Hey there are two different bends of such and such length and angle and the spokes differ by X amount in length," or "All spokes have the same bend and angle," or whatever I find. The only real difference going to an 18-inch wheel should be the length.

John in Kalifornia
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teabowl13
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #18 - 08/12/12 at 18:23:16
 
John in Kalifornia wrote on 08/11/12 at 07:50:29:
I propose taking a Dremel tool and releving the area where the nipple is hitting so that it conforms to the nipple better. Also the hole can be ovaled out.

http://p1.bikepics.com/2012%5C08%5C10%5Cbikepics-2440290-800.jpg


HEY JOHN,
I have a question, and possible suggestion about this diagram.
i'd be concerned with the amount of wheel material being taken off on the short side of the spoke dimple (The right side in your diagram).
It seems taking a little off might help, but maybe not enough for the shoulder of the nipple to really seat all the way around.

What if, on the other side of the hole, you build the area up just a tad with some JB Weld? Then maybe you wouldn't have to take too much metal away from the wheel rim. The JB Weld wouldn't need to be structural really; it would just get sandwiched between the wheel rim and the nipple.
Again, you'd only want to build up a very little bit. Don't want the nipples to be pulled too far up into the wheel rim.

Another thing I thought of; I've used simple finish washers before in places where I needed something to squish into an oddly shaped space, and they work pretty well. They are pretty thin, and fairly soft, so the deform to fit whatever surface they are contacting pretty well. They might be the way to go as far as the washers. Again, the key would be making sure your nipples get down far enough into the hole to get a really good bite on the threads of the spokes.

I'm going to try to pick up my wheel and spokes and such tomorrow. I'll let you know what I come up with if anything.

Cheers!
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John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #19 - 08/13/12 at 04:11:32
 
OK, here's what I did today, or rather yesterday:

Removed the front wheel, brake disc and tire. Had to use heat and an extension on Allen wrench to get disc mounting bolts off. Tire was the usual hassle. At least didn't lose patience and cut it off.

Measured the offset of wheel left/right. This is important to get right so wheel is centered between the fork legs.

Painted the spokes and associated places on  the rim and hub different colors to get the lacing pattern right. I won't bore you with the details now.

Removed the spokes. There are two different bend lengths, as I suspected. One spoke lays against the inner part of the hub.  It goes through the outer hole circle. The spoke next to it on the hub has to cross over it on the way to the wheel so needs a longer bend leg. I'll take pictures to show details. Oddly, the spokes are all the same overall length.

Assembled the new wheel rim with the old spokes for a fit check. Sequence of assembly is important. I knew they would be too long since I'm going from 19 to 18 inches in diameter.

Now for the details: The rear wheel spokes come out from the rim at a severe angle of 65 degrees. Due to the smaller hub dimensions the front spokes are at a more perpendicular angle of 83 degrees.

The fix:

Oval out the spoke nipple holes toward the high point center of the dimple. Round out the hole. I’m going to go to a bigger diameter nipple.

Use a stone to cut back the low side of the dimple but don't remove too much. It won't be possible to make the nipple seat correctly because there isn't enough meat left.

Assemble the wheel using a spacer washer between the spoke hole and the nipple. This washer needs to crush so that it is thinner on one side; its purpose is to spread the load on the wheel.

John in Kalifornia
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John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #20 - 08/13/12 at 10:25:58
 
I heard from another forum member that he received spokes from Buchanan's that all had the same bend length. He said they will replace the incorrect spokes. I'm waiting till he gets his wheel together before I do any more with the front wheel. If it works out I'll tell them to give me the same thing.

I know what I'm gonna do and when I finally get the correct spokes I will get back to it. At least I can work on the back wheel respoking with correct parts. Got a chain conversion to install, too, plus AGM battery, gas tank, etc.

I'll open up a new thread or add to this one later.

BTW, if you want to know how to spoke a Savage wheel I will take pics and write up a tutorial, that is, if I'm successful. My theory, enough time and enough parts anybody can fix anything.

John in Kalifornia
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teabowl13
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #21 - 08/14/12 at 05:30:18
 
HEY JOHN,
Thanks for posting all of this.
I have a bit of a handicap, since I did not take my own front wheel apart. I've been puzzled by the spokes that Buchannan's sent because they are all the same. I will take a closer look, but I'll bet they all have the same bend as well, and that's why they aren't working. I'll contact them right away.

If you know, can yo please let me know exactly what to ask them for? I always find them confusing to talk to unless I have exact measurements for everything...

Could you please post up your measurements at some point? Especially the offset of the wheel? As I said, I didn't take the wheel apart in the first place, and the guy who did didn't take any measurements; he just cut off the spokes and threw them out...
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #22 - 08/14/12 at 06:27:42
 
Looking back, if I had to do it all over again, I'd be very tempted to use a set of stock spokes, cut them down to length, and either have someone re-thread the ends, or possibly even do it myself...

Looking back, I'd do a whole LOT of things differently with this project. Mostly I'd do them myself!
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John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #23 - 08/14/12 at 07:04:57
 
I was thinking of using the stock spokes also but that isn't a good idea.

First, the threads are rolled not cut on spokes, I believe. You might have a hard time getting the correct die anyhoo. I would have no idea what pitch or body size they were and where to go to get metric cutting tools.

The old spokes are used, not new. By the time you are done you will be using Vise Grips on the nipples. Lacing and truing a wheel take lots and lots of back and forth tightening and loosening.

I'll post pics and or drawings of the stock Suzuki spokes with dimensions. There are definitely two different bend lengths. Also I will publish the offset numbers for the hub.

I try to do all my own work and not depend on other people for stuff I can do myself. Often I have no idea what to do but seem to muddle through. I have lots of patience with inanimate objects, little with people.

That said, I can see if you don't have the room or tools you must depend on others. Or for specialized stuff like welding.

John in Kalifornia
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teabowl13
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #24 - 08/14/12 at 10:25:39
 
John in Kalifornia wrote on 08/14/12 at 07:04:57:
...I have lots of patience with inanimate objects, little with people....


Thanks so much John.
I got a message from Dave this morning, and he has offered to send me pics and advice as well. I really appreciate that...

This is something I would never have taken on alone. I did so on the advice of a now former friend who works at a really reputable custom bike shop in Mass. He said I should just get the parts I wanted, and his buddy, who is a "Wheel Building Expert" would take care of the rest .
Needless to say, that fell apart, and I've been trying to figure it out on my own here since June. Even my friend, Scott who builds custom bikes here in Portland has tried to help, but this is a little beyond his experience as well.

I did find another rim on Ebay that matches the one I have, but the holes are not drilled nearly as far to the edge of the dimples. I'm pretty sure that even this one will need some work and massaging to get things lined up, but not as much, and I feel safer about that. I can always re-sell the other rim, as long as I haven't screwed it up; once I start grinding on it, it becomes scrap metal... $150 of scrap metal. These High shouldered vintage rims are super cool, but they ain't cheap!

Cheers!
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #25 - 08/14/12 at 11:02:00
 
Don't futz with the one you have, leave it nice looking. There is quite a difference in the angles of the spokes between the rear and front wheels. Obviously they are not interchangeable. The buzz words to look for are "drum brake hub" or "disc brake hub." The seller may or may not know what bike the rim came off of. I think it's pretty rare to find a dirt bike 18 inch rim for disc brake, at least for the front.

Look at the pics from my first post on this thread. You should be able to tell which type of rim you have. It's pretty obvious if you know what to look for.

I think I can make the rear wheel rim that I bought work on the front but it will require much machining, oversized nipples and careful assembly. Even then it may not look quite right. I enjoy the challenge and am willing to live with less than perfect results. That's my ego problem, gotta say I did it myself. Wouldn't suggest anybody else do it.

Specs later.

John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #26 - 08/14/12 at 20:25:03
 
Here's the dimensions of the stock front wheel spokes. There is about a 40 degree angle on the bend. The difference in bend lengths is 4mm, which is the thickness of the spokes.This makes sense, as one spoke crosses over the other at the hub. The diameter of the head is about 7.31mm. The drawing is misleading; the diameter is a constant 4mm throughout the length.These are mot swaged spokes.

John in Kalifornia

PS, I didn't write down the offset of the wheel. I think that the side opposite the brake is about half an inch off the deck.

Sorry



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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #27 - 08/15/12 at 06:28:00
 
Thanks John,
This will help a lot when talking to Buchannan's.
I got my spokes back yesterday from my friend, Scott, and sure enough, all of the spokes that Buchannan's sent to me are the same length and bend, so they sent me the wrong thing! I will have to call them today to see if they can correct this issue. Apparently Dave Whitacre has already brought this to their attention, and they have corrected the problem for him, so I am hopeful that they will work with me.

I assume that because all of the spokes are the same length (except for the bend of course) that the rim should be centered between the spoke holes in the hub. If the rim was off-set to one side or the other, the spokes for one side of the hub would be longer, right?
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #28 - 08/15/12 at 08:04:41
 
That's a fair assumption. The wheel should be centered between the two sets of holes on the rim. However there is an added thickness outside of the spoke holes on the left side because of the brake. I will take measurements and draw up a picture. I bet I can get pretty close to the correct dimensions. The real proof is when the wheel is mounted on the bike. The tire should be centered left/right between the fork legs.

I'm waiting for you and Dave to get some actual product from Buchanan's to see if they have their act together. Then I'll order my spokes. The rim I'm using will require special oversize diameter nipples because of my "modifications."  BTW, I saw a wheel on Ebay yesterday that looked funny. Sho'nuff somebody had tried to mount a drum brake wheel to a small diameter hub. The spokes were bent. In fact, somebody pointed it out to the seller and mentioned that very thing.

John in Kalifornia
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Re: 18 INCH WHEEL CONVERSION ISSUES
Reply #29 - 08/15/12 at 12:09:29
 
I already ordered and received my spokes from Buchannan's a few months ago. They are all the same bend and length at the head.
I will have to go home and measure them (and hope I find my calipers...) to see if they are all long or short, but I believe they are all the short ones.
Once I have the correct measurements from what I have, I will call them right away to see about getting them replaced...
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