SuzukiSavage.com - Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage engine?

Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12673 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng Reply #15 - 08/07/12 at 21:37:43 Once initiated, the wear doesn't stop. How many times per year do you want to adjust your valves anyway? With ones as ugly as these you can do it every few weeks ..... and once your cam lobes start to go you lose motor efficiency and power.
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Boule’tard Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Master of the Obvious Posts: 1620 Austin TX Gender:	Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng Reply #16 - 08/07/12 at 21:43:27 I figured once the tappets bedded into the cam you'd have to adjust valves less often, due to the higher contact area/lower pressure. But you are saying the more they wear, the more they wear? Maybe it scrubs the temper off?
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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #17 - 08/07/12 at 21:59:49

I'm saying the wear takes place on both parts, with the paddles catching about twice as much wear, but the height of the lobe peak being affected a lot more proportionately -- the area of material removed from the paddles being more than the lobe peak, but the effect of the lobe peak removal being much larger (and unrecoverable). Not all that much cc's of steel actually in that cam lobe peak.

As you figured out, you can adjust for the paddle wear, but when the lobe is partially gone and the valves don't move as much or as fast any more you are just screwed for the performance you don't have any more.

Exhaust cam min spec when new 1.4338"
Total service min wear limit - 1.4220"

Total amount you can wear off the tip 0.0118"
before your performance goes totally away

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« Last Edit: 08/08/12 at 09:17:42 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #18 - 08/08/12 at 06:30:44

So I read the 13 page thread, and then this one, and there is lots of interesting stuff for me as a first time bike owner (mine is a new 2011, BTW).

So here is what I have gathered:

Oil used to have more ppm of ZDDP
Oil now has less ppm ZDDP
Some people think this is a big deal
Some people don't think this is a big deal
Some people believe that the lower ZDDP is directly responsible for unprecedented wear in our engines
No one can say quantitatively what the magic number is for ppm
No one can say quantitatively that lower ppm of ZDDP is the reason for the ticks and knocks

Which is what made me happy when I read this thread, because I had the same question: because it questions the threshold (ie: maybe 1200 is more than we need for "perfect" lube). But maybe 1000 is more than enough. Or maybe it's 800.

My issue with some of the posts is they sound a little like fear mongering: find an oil with a high ppm of ZDDP or the sky will fall. There were a couple of posters in the long thread who said they have high mileage bikes and they haven't done anything extraordinary in terms of oil selection, and have no problems. Obviously, these opinions are inconsistent with excessive wear argument.

I'm a fan of dialogue but I'm an even bigger fan of facts. There are a number of suppositions being made on this topic.

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #19 - 08/08/12 at 06:46:44

Yup, there are. Suppositions. Questions.

Same things seem to be going on here, and here, and here.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lack+of+ZDDP+killing+engines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-...

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Let's talk about those high mileage bikes, most of which are the early Savage models.

Think about it a bit, over 3/4 of their years and miles were on the old high ZDDP oils because THAT'S ALL THERE WAS BACK THEN. New bikes bought new in the last few years are having the very early issues with the ticky tappy syndrome. I wonder why that could be.

Is this fear mongering? Ah, you admit there is something to be afraid of, potentially then.

All oil formulators back when they were unregulated put in 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP. Racing oil formulators still put in 1,600 to 1,850 ppm of ZDDP. Up until 3 months ago Mobil 1 put in 1,350 ppm of ZDDP into their bike oils. Web Cam insists that you use a high 1,800 ppm ZDDP oil for break in if you want any warranty period on your Lancer cam. All these formulators had a reason to do this, you know.

Now the rules have apparently changed again and all bike oils are coming in with much lower ZDDP (800 to 1,100 ppm)

So, you have read and are not convinced because you think you are being sold something. Natural enough reaction for a guy type, I do believe.

hmmmmm .....

Last time I got accused of "paranoia mongering" it was over the stock vac petcock which I was saying was a root issue with many of the "CARBURETOR ISSUES" people were chasing endlessly at the time.

How did that one turn out?

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #20 - 08/08/12 at 07:46:35

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/08/12 at 06:46:44:

All oil formulators back when they were unregulated put in 1,400 to 1,600 ppm of ZDDP.

That is a pretty strong point. The amount the designers were putting in before the cat.converter issue came up is probably the sweet spot in terms of engine protection. Now they have to either compromise by cutting it back, or come up with alternative ways ( calcium??) to prevent galling that won't muck up the cats.

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #21 - 08/08/12 at 08:15:03

Foxman276 wrote on 08/08/12 at 06:30:44:

My issue with some of the posts is they sound a little like fear mongering: find an oil with a high ppm of ZDDP or the sky will fall.

Nah. I think we can agree that engine wear due to inadequate ZDDP is non-catastrophic, it is not like the latest oil will cause you to toss a valve. There is a continuum of wear vs. ZDDP level that hits a point of diminished returns, where increasing beyond it will not help your engine any more. Based on the old oil designs, that level is probably around 1200ppm.

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #22 - 08/08/12 at 09:04:56

Hark, is this a budding consensus we hear a blossoming, with the fresh little petals of truth each saying that 1,200 ppm of ZDDP is the minimum the Savage should have for best rocker arm tappet & cam life?

If so, what are you going to recommend to the newbies that they should be doing ???

What oils should they be buying?

Fair warning, in six months to a year you may be in a position where "motorcycle oils" are not good enough for the antique style Savage engine and you are going to have to have a new mantra about JASO as the current crop of weak sister motorcycle oils are all already sporting the JASO MA label.

Heaven help us when JASO goes over to the MB cat converter standard.

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #23 - 08/08/12 at 09:17:19

My scooter has a cat. converter, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to skimp on oil quality just to accommodate that.

A couple of solutions come to mind. First, an idea from the Honda CB guys (SOHC4.net). You can send your rockers off to be coated with a super hard finish. I don't think it is nikasil but whatever it is, it works for parts that rub straight against the cam.

The other idea is to just keep adding a ZDDP supplement like that redline break-in stuff. I am reminded of "Real Lead" and other additives old hot rodders put in their fuel to protect the valves from unleaded gas. Putting ZDDP in the oil is less trouble than that. We'll just have to see what's available at the time and calculate how much ZDDP to add.

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SALB Serious Thumper Offline FSO Posts: 668 Whittier, AK Gender:	Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng Reply #24 - 08/08/12 at 10:21:35 Hmmm....I wonder how much it would cost to have roller rockers made for our engine? Probably not cheap, but it would put this whole zppd issue to rest.
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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #25 - 08/08/12 at 10:51:52

Drifter just polled Crane Cams and Mobil -- 1,500 ppm ZDDP is minimum they recommended to him.

They say the car oils have been in the dumper for a while and the JASO bike oils just went down the loo, too.
(Mobile 1 right along with the rest of them).

Drifter is saying he was told to use a supplement on top of the HDEOs, that 1,200 ppm of ZDDP isn't enough.

Read this thread, the points made about valve guides are new and alarming (but falls in line with the oil loss we have been seeing going on)

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344446001

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #26 - 08/08/12 at 14:26:53

Man.....this is making my head spin. I just stopped by Advance Auto to see what kind of oils they had for motorcycles. The oil bottles had a MA-2 rating? I had not heard of that....I was just looking for the MA rating. I googled and this is what I found:

JASO effectively added the JASO-MA2 & JASO-MA1 specifications by splitting the existing JASO-MA spec into two groups by friction-performance (MA1 is the lower friction oils; MA2 the higher friction oils suitable for bikes).
The change came out as final/approved in 2006 in response to catalytic converters becoming widespread in bikes (EPA/EU requirements); it was also prompted in part by the car-lobby of the JASO organization wanting to specify a subset of the JASO-MA oils for use in their cars (the low friction oils, which become JASO-MA1). JASO-MA2 is just starting to show up in the US Market as a rating because this is the first year that catalytic converter-equipped bikes are widespread.

Aside from splitting the MA spec into two sub-groups, the new specs add a phosphorous content ceiling (better protect catalytic converters by using less, but phosphorous is also anti-wear additive, so it could be less start-up protection). JASO-MA2 being the heavier friction oils most suitable for motorcycle use will become the common standard for Japanese-built (and many Euro-built) motorcycles for the '08 and later model years.

Note that JASO-MA2 can now be API SJ formulated, but API SL & API SM formulations still directly contradict JASO-MA/MA1/MA2 standards because of the use of friction modifiers that are not wet-clutch compatible.

The JASO-MA (no suffix number) still remains in effect as well. For the Kats, API SF/SG + JASO-MA rated oils will remain the oils of choice until they are no longer available.

Everyone go out and buy a case or two of your favorite oil.....and stock it away for safe keeping.

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Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng
Reply #27 - 08/08/12 at 14:50:03

Well there, Bill -- looks like you get your wish .... we are only going to list your two most hated oils in the entire world on our Recommended list along with a recommended ZDDP booster.

You get to spray yer Billish juice endlessly now with full justification as obviously Oldfeller arranged this whole thing as an attack on Klotz.

And who knows, they may actually take the JASO MA off the Rotella jugs because it isn't the current spec any more and the Rotella oils have way too much ZDDP for MA2 or MB or whatever they are gonna call it. Boy, you can have a field day with that, lemme tell ya.

And then when your Klotz reformulates itself to JASO MA2, or JASO MB or whatever they wind up calling it then ol'Bill be faced with the hardest choice of his oil warring career.

He may have to run something other than RED oil.

Grin

psssst !!! Bill !!!! Buy a bottle of RedLine ZDDP booster and boost up your Klotz MA2/MB up to usable strength and never tell anyone that you are doing it .... That's the ticket fer ya !!!! Fool 'um !!!

It will still be all red and they will never be able to prove you are doing it.

Cheesy

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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12673 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng Reply #28 - 08/08/12 at 15:05:28 Incoming .... BITOG says the new JASO grades can not only be formulated puny, but they are ALLOWED to shear out of grade. What lunacy is this? http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1883244
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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Is 1,000 ppm of ZDDP enough for the Savage eng Reply #29 - 08/08/12 at 15:24:41 Klotz mx4 15/40 Hi Performance TechniPlate JASO-MA 4T oil .
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