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Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change... (Read 280 times)
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #15 - 07/31/12 at 13:54:56
 
someone is believing all the BS huh?
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #16 - 07/31/12 at 17:05:11
 
WebsterMark wrote on 07/31/12 at 13:29:27:
Unchecked population growth-with 7 billion people, millions of people are starving because there is not enough food to eat. Basic fact: if all the food were distributed evenly among the entire population, we couldn't produce enough to feed us all for very long.

okay, this is important for eveyone to understand. This is utter BS. We have an abundance of food. People are starving due to political instability not shortage of food. The 'civilized world' throws away enough food to feed the world easily.


Honestly Teacher, do you really think the world simply can't produce enough food and that's why people starve??? Who told you that?

We have an abundance because others are starving, and I never said it wasn't political, but the fact remains, we can't support all 7,000,000,000 people to a satisfactory level of nourishment (say 2000 calories per day) for long.( About 1,000,000,000 people are living below the proper nourishment level) That would be 14,000,000,000,000 calories of food production per day. For reference that is 57,851,200,000 ears of corn, or 113,821,000,000 cups of rice per day. ( I hesitate to mention wheat Grin)
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #17 - 07/31/12 at 19:00:18
 
teacher;
i get the feeling you are genuine. do a little research and answer you question. can we feed the world today?
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #18 - 07/31/12 at 20:43:04
 
WebsterMark wrote on 07/31/12 at 13:29:27:
Unchecked population growth-with 7 billion people, millions of people are starving because there is not enough food to eat. Basic fact: if all the food were distributed evenly among the entire population, we couldn't produce enough to feed us all for very long.

okay, this is important for eveyone to understand. This is utter BS. We have an abundance of food. People are starving due to political instability not shortage of food. The 'civilized world' throws away enough food to feed the world easily.

Honestly Teacher, do you really think the world simply can't produce enough food and that's why people starve??? Who told you that?


Who told you otherwise mark? Dont rely on us blind sheep to find the right answers, you must enlighten us for we are too ignant to find the path. Where are your numbers? Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #19 - 07/31/12 at 20:56:08
 
POlitics & distribution are standing between the starving & food,,
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #20 - 07/31/12 at 21:20:43
 
Who told you otherwise mark? Dont rely on us blind sheep to find the right answers, you must enlighten us for we are too ignant to find the path. Where are your numbers? Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist.

I work in the food production industry. I was at a plant today that produces literally millions of pounds per month. Being an evil for profit corporation, they are extremely efficient. Wasted food is money down the drain. As efficient as they are, hundreds of thousands of pounds a year are lost due to production errors, inefficiencies and shelf life. Two weeks ago, I was at the largest beef production plant in the US. They can slaughter over 5000 cattle per day. Again, an evil for profit corporation, but even they lose hundreds of thousands of pounds per year and they do everything they can not too.  A month or so ago I was at a Texas poultry hatchery. Every single week, 52 week out of the year, they hatch 300,000 chicks. Every single week. These are just three plants out of thousands around just the United States. Now, that’s only part one. Part two: carry that forward to the average household. How much food is wasted, throw away or goes bad? 2 pounds a week for every person is a low estimate, probably close to 4.  Don’t think so? Care to think about how much food gets lost over a 3 day summer weekend in the US? In France? In England? In Brazil? Do the math yourself. There are 7 billion people in the world. A person can survive on 3000 calories a day easily. Figure it out.

Consider this very simple fact. No one dies in the United States from starvation. No one. It never happens. Anyone literally starving to death just needs to knock on a door or go to a church and they’ll get fed. No one dies of starvation in the US. We’re in the middle of the longest drought in 12 years and still no one will starve. Going hungry and starving are two vastly differnt things.

Go to Africa however, and it’s different. People starve to death. Why? There’s your answer. You answer why no one starves to death in the US, but they do in Africa and you’ll have your answer.  
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #21 - 07/31/12 at 22:15:18
 
"Dont forget to cite your references like a good pretend scientist." Splash

I found his references and data. It's from a site called "Over population is a myth.com".  (site says everyone in the world can fit into Texas.)

...How many people can "fit" into Texas is so silly it's absurd to even consider it.... The term “overpopulation” doesn’t refer to how many people can “fit” somewhere. You could stack those seven billion people like cordwood and they’d fit in a much smaller space than Texas. Heck, you could even chop them into pieces so they’d fit together in an even smaller space...say Dallas.

Over population refers to the number of organisms in relation to their habitat’s ability to support them. In the case of humanity, it means the number of people on earth in relation to how much fresh water there is, how much food we can grow, the ability of the environment to process our wastes, and so on.

It’s also a fact that the entire population of the Earth isn’t sharing the planet equally or fairly. We’re divided into continents and nations, many of which either can’t or won’t join together to solve the problem. Lots of those places have already surpassed their environment’s capacity to support their populations.

It’s easy to sit here in our air conditioned castles in the U.S.and say that those other countries have only themselves to blame. Whether that's true is now irrelevant to their starvation and disease.

Their math problem has come and gone. It’ll happen to us all sooner or later. Sooner, if we pretend the idea of overpopulation doesn’t exist.

BTW Webster, I couldn't help but to notice your OPIAM site sell T-shirts that spell out such things as "Survival of the Richest" and "Help the Poor, Don't Kill Them" and "Maybe Greed is the Problem". These messages reflect liberal social issues that I hope you will take to heart....

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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #22 - 07/31/12 at 22:29:05
 
WebsterMark wrote on 07/31/12 at 21:20:43:
Go to Africa however, and it’s different. People starve to death. Why? There’s your answer. You answer why no one starves to death in the US, but they do in Africa and you’ll have your answer.  

Because you're an idiot?...

Webster,.. we live in a land of plenty... We eat too much... We have learned to be wasteful...
It is by accident of birth that we are here, where food is plentiful...
It is an accident of climate...  
Climate Change,.. is just that...
It may end up that Africa becomes a land of plenty,.. and we end up starving... it may end up that there is no place of plenty anymore...
Nobody Knows...  ..but a shift is coming...
That we know...

If you, or I, were born elsewhere, we might likely have distended belly's from hunger...  or more likely be dead...
We aren't superior or special,.. just really frikkin' lucky...
We were born where things are plentiful...
That can change...
That is climate change...

A few degrees might not destroy humanity... but it will have effect...
It might turn this world on it's head...  
We are the bread basket of the world... that might change very easily...

It surely will eventually,... but this the crisis in our headlights now...


PS... homeless people usually freeze to death, or die of heatstroke, before they starve... or overdose, or die from medical complications without healthcare, or vitamin deficiencies, or flu... so, they seldom starve...

Starvation seldom causes death,.. it just weakens until a minor illness or virus causes death...

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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #23 - 07/31/12 at 22:55:04
 
"Consider this very simple fact. No one dies in the United States from starvation. No one. It never happens." Webster

Maybe, maybe not....but, you can dam* well bet there are people in this country who must choose between buying food or medicine every month...cat food anyone?

****************************************************************

U.S. Hunger & Poverty Statistics
Hunger & Poverty Statistics
Although related, food insecurity and poverty are not the same.  Unemployment rather than poverty is a stronger predictor of food insecurity.

Povertyi

In 2010, 46.2 million people (15.1 percent) were in poverty.
In 2010, 9.2 million (11.7 percent) families were in poverty.
In 2010, 26.3 million (13.7 percent) of people ages 18-64 were in poverty.
In 2010, 16.4 million (22.0 percent) children under the age of 18 were in poverty.
In 2010, 3.5 million (9.0 percent) seniors 65 and older were in poverty.
The overall Poverty Rate according to the Supplemental Poverty Measure is 16.0%, as compared with the official poverty rate of 15.1%.ii
Under the Supplemental Poverty Measure, there are 49.1 million people living in poverty, 2.5 million more than are represented by the official poverty measure (46.2 million).iii
Food Insecurity and Very Low Food Security iv

In 2010, 48.8 million Americans lived in food insecure households, 32.6 million adults and 16.2 million children.
In 2010, 14.5 percent of households (17.2 million households) were food insecure.
In 2010, 5.4 percent of households (6.4 million households) experienced very low food security.
In 2010, households with children reported food insecurity at a significantly higher rate than those without children, 20.2 percent compared to 11.7 percent.
In 2010, households that had higher rates of food insecurity than the national average included households with children (20.2 percent), especially households with children headed by single women (35.1 percent) or single men (25.4 percent), Black non-Hispanic households (25.1 percent) and Hispanic households (26.2 percent).
In 2009, 8.0 percent of seniors living alone (925,000 households) were food insecure.
Food insecurity exists in every county in America, ranging from a low of 5 percent in Steele County, ND to a high of 38 percent in Wilcox County, AL.v
Nine states exhibited statistically significant higher household food insecurity rates than the U.S. national average 2008-2010: iv

United States                    14.6%

Mississippi                          19.4%

Texas                                    18.8%

Arkansas                              18.6%

Alabama                              17.3%

Georgia                                  16.9%

Ohio                                      16.4%

Florida                                  16.1%

California                             15.9%

North Carolina                   15.7%

Use of Emergency Food Assistance and Federal Food Assistance Programs vi

In 2010, 4.8 percent of all U.S. households (5.6 million households) accessed emergency food from a food pantry one or more times.2
In 2010, 59.2 percent of food-insecure households participated in at least one of the three major Federal food assistance programs –Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (formerly Food Stamp Program), The National School Lunch Program, and the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children.
Feeding America provides emergency food assistance to an estimated 37 million low-income people annually, a 46 percent increase from 25 million since Hunger in America 2010.
Among members of Feeding America, 74 percent of pantries, 65 percent of kitchens, and 54 percent of shelters reported that there had been an increase since 2006 in the number of clients who come to their emergency food program sites.


World Hunger: A Vicious Cycle

Synopsis  

Overview:  Hunger is the feeling one experience with a lack of food, the “persistent gnawing condition resulting from a lack of adequate food intake, which prevents one form working of thinking correctly.”  Starvation is the most severe case of the condition of hunger.  Starvation and hunger, if not combated, lead certainly to malnutrition.  Malnutrition is the condition resulting from a lack of life sustaining vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, and carbohydrates.  

Up to one billion people worldwide consume less than the minimum critical daily caloric intake needed to avoid hunger.  

Hunger is most severe in the poorest parts of the world.  Africa, India, Pakistan and Indonesia have the largest percentage of hungry people of all the countries in the world.  

In Africa in particular, hunger and disease are a vicious cycle.  Hunger, along with many other effects causes the immune system to weaken, making the body more susceptible to other diseases.  These diseases, including AIDS, kill the older generation of people, the ‘bread winners’ and those who work in the fields to grow the food.  When those people die, only the younger generations of children are left to fend for themselves and because they lack the care of a parent or adult, they are unable to sustain themselves with sufficient food intake.   Also, because the infant mortality rate in third world countries is so high, families have large numbers of children to increase the chance that some will survive.  By doing this, however, there are more mouths to feed and subsequently more hungry people in the world.  Furthermore, malnutrition slows the intellectual development of children and young adults, and therefore, the problems of hunger and disease in third world countries cannot be solved internally but need outside influence and aid.  The UN and other world hunger organizations offer significant economic and medical aid to these countries to help stamp out hunger.

Hunger is not a problem because the world food production is not enough to feed all of the people in the world; it is a problem because the food is not distributed equally among all of the countries and people in the world.  Third world countries that have a great percentage of the population starving do not have the resources to obtain or grow food.  These countries also have a lower standard of living than second of first world countries, as well as a non-existent economic infrastructure, or it one does exist, it is unstable.  These factors also have an impact on a country’s technological capabilities.  See hunger map for world starvation figures and estimates.  

If all the food in the world were divided equally among all the people in the world, each person would get three times the minimum amount needed to survive.  If there was a feasible way to accomplish this enormous task, the solution to world hunger would be found.  Until then, charities and donations must aid the organizational fight against world hunger.

Statistics:

Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger.
 

Every year 15 million children die of hunger.
 

One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of five.
 

Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion total, live on less than US$1 per day.
 

One out of every eight children under twelve in the US goes to bed hungry every night.
 

Half of all children under age five in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.
 

To satisfy the world’s sanitation and food requirements would only cost US$13 billion – what the people of the United States and the European Union spend of perfume each year.
 

Some 800 million people in the world suffer form hunger and malnutrition, about 1000 times as many as those who actually die form it each year.

The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world’s hungry people.  Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%5 and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world.



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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #24 - 08/01/12 at 04:38:46
 
...How many people can "fit" into Texas is so silly it's absurd to even consider it.... The term “overpopulation” doesn’t refer to how many people can “fit” somewhere. You could stack those seven billion people like cordwood and they’d fit in a much smaller space than Texas. Heck, you could even chop them into pieces so they’d fit together in an even smaller space...say Dallas.

Dear Idiot Star; (and yea I know it’s bad to call someone names but you make it so easy Star because in fact you are an idiot)  the Texas population exercise is a thought experiment meant to convey concepts and truths. It’s not literal. It’s like Einstein using trains in space traveling at high velocities to demonstrate his relativity ideas. I’m assuming this is beyond you. Everything I said is valid and correct as far as I know. Do the math yourself.  If I’m wrong, point it out.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #25 - 08/01/12 at 04:52:20
 
Webster,.. we live in a land of plenty... We eat too much... We have learned to be wasteful...
It is by accident of birth that we are here, where food is plentiful...


Clarification needed: it is an accident of birth we are here, but it is not an accident food is plentiful here. In fact it takes a lot of hard work and diligence to make that happen.


It may end up that Africa becomes a land of plenty,.. and we end up starving... it may end up that there is no place of plenty anymore...
I agree with that and would say if that happens, it will be due to political instability, not lack of food supply.
Nobody Knows... ..but a shift is coming...
That we know...


Not sure I agree, I would say there’s always a possibility of natural disaster waiting around the corner or man-made disaster. However, it’s far more likely the man-made disaster is global war or global political instability than global warming.

If you, or I, were born elsewhere, we might likely have distended belly's from hunger... or more likely be dead...
We aren't superior or special,.. just really frikkin' lucky...


But for the Grace of God, go I.  Yes, we are lucky and we owe a debt to others who went before us.

We were born where things are plentiful...

But that's not why we are a wealthy nation. The United States doesn’t have any more natural resources than Africa or South America. We had a political system established that allowed us to thrive. Africa is trapped in a mess of self-destructive cultures. Hey, did our future President just say something about how a nation’s culture effects a nation’s economic well being…

PS... homeless people usually freeze to death, or die of heatstroke, before they starve... or overdose, or die from medical complications without healthcare, or vitamin deficiencies, or flu... so, they seldom starve...

Starvation seldom causes death,.. it just weakens until a minor illness or virus causes death...


I’m very well aware of that, but that wasn’t the question at hand. The point is; to solve a problem the problem has to be correctly identified. Shortage of worldwide food supply is not the problem for the hungry, political instability is. Giving food all day to starving people in Africa is the right thing to do, but solving the politics of those nations is just as much the moral thing to do.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #26 - 08/01/12 at 04:54:20
 
Star; OPIAM site
i have no idea what this is a reference to.

the rest of your long cut and paste post is not news tome and not what I was talking about.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #27 - 08/01/12 at 07:11:46
 
WebsterMark wrote on 08/01/12 at 04:38:46:
Dear Idiot Star; (and yea I know it’s bad to call someone names but you make it so easy Star because in fact you are an idiot)  the Texas population exercise is a thought experiment meant to convey concepts and truths. It’s not literal. It’s like Einstein using trains in space traveling at high velocities to demonstrate his relativity ideas. I’m assuming this is beyond you. Everything I said is valid and correct as far as I know. Do the math yourself.  If I’m wrong, point it out.



Just because you find something easy does not mean you should do it. Poor form Mark. Pooping in your pants is easy but I bet you don't do that.


You are right, you can fit everyone in the world into Texas, and I realize its an exercise in concept, however it's a poor one. Every population ecologist in the world knows that available space does not equal larger carrying capacity. Is every bit of Texas suitable for habitation? Is every bit of open space in the world suitable for habitation, dont we need space to grow food for all these people, what about water is there water everywhere, can we feasibly send resources to these places to support the growing population.

Here are some numbers, I used the basic rule of 70 to calculate doubling times for world population. The current world population growth rate is around 1.2% with a current population of 7 Billion it would only take 58 years for this population to reach 14 Billion. That is to say if the rate stays the same throughout those 58 years. It wont, it is already showing a steady trend downward so lets say it drops to 1% over this time, this seems feasible since the rate has dropped drastically since the early 60s but appears to now be leveling off. At 1% growth rate it would take the current population only 70 years to reach 14 Billion. it took us 40 years to go from 3.5 Billion in 1970 to 7 Billion currently.  in 70 years everyone will get half the water, half the food, and half the land that was once available.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #28 - 08/04/12 at 23:53:37
 
srinath wrote on 07/31/12 at 10:54:21:
So, OK humans cause global warming.

But can someone tell me advantages of that - Yes advantages, and I am not talking frivolous crap like the white house is only 8ft above sea level and will go under long before my house does etc etc ...

Older - 40 and up kids should try to remember back to their school days.
Young-un's well you on your own I think.

OK fine its a serious problem when it gets warmer. Yes, I will give you that, but there is an advantage as well. Or a problem has been solved.

Cool.
Srinath.



Answering my own question -
Do you remember we were told the earth's axis of rotation would shift due to the weight of the ice at the poles. Not gonna happen with global warming.
Also global warming will shift the tropical belt further north. As in more of the US will fall under the tropical area, and more easier in effect to grow more food, not just corn and soybeans. Everything grows better where it is warm and wet. Land of plenty will become land of super plenty.
BTW every school kid in the US @ lunch I will bet spills/throws away enough food to feed a family of 4 in a undernourished country. Now are you going to scrape it up and transport it a few 1000 miles. Not just politics, there is a significant logistics issue there as well.

Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: Richard Muller: 'Humans Cause Climate Change..
Reply #29 - 08/05/12 at 05:25:37
 
Just because you find something easy does not mean you should do it. Poor form Mark. Pooping in your pants is easy but I bet you don't do that.
Sorry, but when it comes to Star; all bets are off.

You are right, you can fit everyone in the world into Texas, and I realize its an exercise in concept, however it's a poor one. Every population ecologist in the world knows that available space does not equal larger carrying capacity. Is every bit of Texas suitable for habitation? Is every bit of open space in the world suitable for habitation, dont we need space to grow food for all these people, what about water is there water everywhere, can we feasibly send resources to these places to support the growing population.

It’s an excellent conceptual exercise for anyone open minded. Of course it’s understood not every square inch is inhabitable, but consider Las Vegas Nevada. If a couple million people can live in that area, where can’t you live?

dont we need space to grow food for all these people

Have you ever driven down I-5 in California? It’s probably more eye opening than the coastal highway. Couple hundred miles of driving thru what really is the world’s breadbasket. You telling me the continent of Africa is geologically incapable of such a feat? Of course it is.  

Here are some numbers, I used the basic rule of 70 to calculate doubling times for world population. The current world population growth rate is around 1.2% with a current population of 7 Billion it would only take 58 years for this population to reach 14 Billion. That is to say if the rate stays the same throughout those 58 years. It wont, it is already showing a steady trend downward so lets say it drops to 1% over this time, this seems feasible since the rate has dropped drastically since the early 60s but appears to now be leveling off. At 1% growth rate it would take the current population only 70 years to reach 14 Billion. it took us 40 years to go from 3.5 Billion in 1970 to 7 Billion currently. in 70 years everyone will get half the water, half the food, and half the land that was once available.

I have no idea how many people this world could sustain. Given all the empty space in the world, excess food supply in civilized nations, the potential for farming improvements in 3rd world nations, I’d guess we could have 3- 4 times the people; up to 28 billion, but I’m just guessing.  Heck, Australia has less than 25 million. It’s about the same size as the lower 48 but with 1/12 the population. The entire South American continent has a population only 25% larger than the US. There’s a lot of room in the world…
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