Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Stretched cam chain - affects timing? (Read 184 times)
DangRider
Ex Member




Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
07/05/12 at 11:50:12
 
I've read through many of the posts regarding the cam chain and tensioner.

Verslagen's tensioner can take up more slack, increasing the usable life of the chain, but how much do the stretched links affect the timing of the valves?  Is there power loss, valve fouling because the timing is a little retarded?

I don't mean any offense.  I'm pretty new to motorcycles/engines in general and trying to get edu-ma-cated.

Thanks.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
360k+
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Savage heart of
darkness

Posts: 680
Cartersville, GA
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #1 - 07/05/12 at 12:03:32
 
Good question.   My guess is a miniscule amount.  You'd actually have to measure overall chain length on a new chain vs a stretched chain.   The difference  divided 2 (chain is a loop) would probably be proportional to the % of valve offset.   It seems like one thread in here did mention the amount of stretch you could expect to get on a worn out chain.
Back to top
 
 

The JOURNEY is the reward!
  IP Logged
Routy
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2280
Winston Oregon
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #2 - 07/05/12 at 12:16:32
 
You are correct about timing, but I'd bet it is not much more than theory,........or at least I have never noticed an increase in performance after changing any chain or belt in other applications,......even tho we know that in theroy there had to be some.

Kinda like, if your perfectly flat kitchen table is level in the middle, its impossible to be level nearer the edges  Shocked
Back to top
 
 

Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)
  IP Logged
Cavi Mike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Thumper n00b

Posts: 1005
Rochester, NY
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #3 - 07/05/12 at 12:31:07
 
Maybe a degree but not enough to matter.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #4 - 07/05/12 at 12:35:28
 

It has been calculated out at 5-6 degrees retarded when the chain is totally shot on the second life (hitting itself in the middle).

It is what it is, no one around here has ever suggested replacing a hundred+ dollar cam chain to regain that little bit of performance.
Back to top
 
 

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
verslagen1
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Where there's a
will, I want to be
in it.

Posts: 28890
L.A. California
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #5 - 07/05/12 at 12:58:41
 
You're allowed about .060" chain stretch.
for each .010" you get about 1° of cam retard.
if you were racing, it might matter.
otherwise, I don't think it matters.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
DangRider
Ex Member




Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #6 - 07/05/12 at 13:30:09
 
Thanks for the information.  I'll plan on getting a Verslavy this winter when the snow flies!  (I've been told snow and two wheels is too much excitement  Undecided )
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #7 - 07/05/12 at 15:45:02
 
Naaah, snow is okay, its that blasted Ice ya get into,, BUT,, with some outriggers & an arm off the back of the frame with a spike & some cable & an explosive charge so you can "Drop Anchor" in an emergency, I dont see any reason to park it,, Well,, except for the occasional car skidding across the road or thru a stop lite,, hey,, I can picture riding thru the winter in Idaho.. suuure I can,, Im not really able to picture surviving it,, but, hey, how will ya know if ya dont at least try, right?
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
360k+
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Savage heart of
darkness

Posts: 680
Cartersville, GA
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #8 - 07/05/12 at 19:14:56
 
verslagen1 wrote on 07/05/12 at 12:58:41:
You're allowed about .060" chain stretch.
for each .010" you get about 1° of cam retard.
if you were racing, it might matter.
otherwise, I don't think it matters.


I think I remember seeing that spec (actually .070), but measured over just 5 inches of chain (or 20 pin spacing).   So .070 of stretch would be about 1.4% and constitute a "worn out" chain.   IDK how long the chain is overall, but if measuring the entire length, of course, the stretch spec would be much higher.   I don't remember where I saw it, but I'll see if I can find the spec again.
Back to top
 
 

The JOURNEY is the reward!
  IP Logged
verslagen1
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Where there's a
will, I want to be
in it.

Posts: 28890
L.A. California
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #9 - 07/05/12 at 19:32:18
 
that might have been taken into consideration, might not have.
it's been a couple of years since I've done it.
Back to top
 
 
WWW   IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #10 - 07/05/12 at 19:39:27
 
Whatever change in length the cam change has in it, considerable less than half of that is between the spot on the cam gear where the chain comes free & the spot on the crank gear where it stops being free. The rest of the difference is taken up in the teeth on the gears & the tensioner,
Yer not gonna lose Hoot in performance,
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
360k+
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Savage heart of
darkness

Posts: 680
Cartersville, GA
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #11 - 07/07/12 at 09:17:30
 
At 65, I still have a memory like a steel trap, snap shotting virtually everything I see  ...ummm, except WHERE I saw it!    Grin

Zuk's service manual...

CAM DRIVE CHAIN 20·PITCH
LENGTH
Pull the chain tight to remove any slack, then using
vernier calipers, measure the 20-pitch (21 pins)
length of chain. If it measures more than the limit,
replace the chain.
Service Limit 128.9 mm or 5.070 (.070 over)

The 20 chain links measured is almost exactly 5 inches in length on a new chain, from the front of pin 1 to the front of pin 21.   The .070 stretch limit is 1.4% which equates to just over 5 angular degrees of lag on the cam sprocket (1.4 X 360 = 5.04).   So make sure you are NOT measuring the entire length of the chain when checking service limit.  For instance, lets say the overall chain length was 25 inches.   In that case, the service limit when measuring the ENTIRE chain would .350 inches of stretch (.070 X 5).
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 07/07/12 at 10:29:36 by 360k+ »  

The JOURNEY is the reward!
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #12 - 07/07/12 at 10:17:53
 
I think the cam drive gear diameter is necesary to calculate this.
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
360k+
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Savage heart of
darkness

Posts: 680
Cartersville, GA
Gender: male
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #13 - 07/07/12 at 10:54:02
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/07/12 at 10:17:53:
I think the cam drive gear diameter is necesary to calculate this.


Hmmm, I don't think so, but now you've got me curious?   My thinking is that the 1.4% is absolute length increase, no matter whether you measure the whole chain or one link.  As such, it corresponds to the rotational angle difference (lag) between the driving gear and the driven gear.  I wish I had better sim tools (or the brain I used to have before all the drugs, drinking, fast women, and other debauchery of my youth).

In any case, the point was that the .070 service limit was over just 5 inches of chain, not the entire length.  I didn't want members to be throwing out chains that had only .070 on the whole length, which would probably be garnered in the first few thousand miles.
Back to top
 
 

The JOURNEY is the reward!
  IP Logged
justin_o_guy2
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

What happened?

Posts: 55279
East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.
Re: Stretched cam chain - affects timing?
Reply #14 - 07/07/12 at 11:46:40
 
Well,, heres my thinking,, If a gear is a foot across & I move the perimeter an inch, the # of degrees the center turns will be one number.
If I have a gear only 6 inches across & I move the gear an inch, the # of degrees the center rotates will be quite different,. &
if I have a gear only one inch around the perimeter & I move IT an inch, it will be a full 360, so, diameter matters.,
Back to top
 
 

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
10/04/24 at 20:21:17



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Stretched cam chain - affects timing?


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.