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Raptor Wars:   A Chapter on the Raptor (Read 580 times)
Scott.aust
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Raptor Wars:   A Chapter on the Raptor
06/19/12 at 02:59:31
 
Great post !! Thank you for the trouble of doing all that research and putting it out here. I'm going for a Raptor for the simple reason that Off is OFF.
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« Last Edit: 07/11/12 at 13:23:19 by Oldfeller--FSO »  
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #1 - 06/19/12 at 07:04:36
 
Nice comparison.  The swap is super easy and worth it for several reasons, not the least of which is NOW YOU CAN REMOVE THE TANK EASILY!!!  Smiley
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #2 - 06/19/12 at 08:40:15
 
Badass94Cad wrote on 06/19/12 at 07:04:36:
Nice comparison.  The swap is super easy and worth it for several reasons, not the least of which is NOW YOU CAN REMOVE THE TANK EASILY!!!  Smiley

Agreed.  As noted in the original post, the stock petcock rubbed the frame badly when removing the tank.  I didn't take mine off though; I just rubbed the paint off the frame at that point.  The Raptor doesn't hit the frame at all.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #3 - 06/19/12 at 09:10:51
 

Dave,

First, float and valve assemblies actually sticking on you are incredibly rare after mounting a Raptor, much more so than the stock vac petcock as the stock petcock tends to run the bowl empty and force the float assembly to drop to the bottom extreme limit of its travel, which is where it tends to stick.   (and they do tend to stick a bit when the vac unit begins to starve the engine all the time)   

The Raptor never causes this "stick the float" as it never starves the bowl for gasoline.  Your float assembly is always floating in that narrow just barely closed "sweet spot" that it is designed & intended to float in.  Float assemblies never stick in the "sweet spot", ever.


==========      Leaking Fuel Valve Assemblies

Leaking fuel valve assemblies are different from sticking float assemblies -- a leaker has a flaw in the rubber lined probe and seat assembly that is very slowly dripping fuel (a drop at a time) all the time.

Leaker float valves are a mechanical failure mode of the carburetor, caused by vibrational abuse or possibly over-use of strong chemical carburetor cleaners that swelled/cracked the rubber part of the float valve seal until it did not mate right any more.

To give you a numerical quantification on leakers, there has only been two leaking float valve assemblies ever noted after changing over to a Raptor, both of which had been leaking on those particular carburetors since before the stock petcock was removed.   In both cases the user dropped the bowl and changed out the damaged float valve assembly.   In both cases, it was a simple mechanical problem with the carburetor that was due to previous abuse.  In neither case did any gasoline get into the sump.

Remember, gasoline in the sump has NEVER YET HAPPENED due to a Raptor petcock conversion, indeed the only gas in sump episodes of any severity (such as could possibly result in a fire, etc.) have happened with the stock vacuum actuated petcock diaphragm failing and running gas down the vac line.  

But we are all watching diligently for that first Raptor gas in sump episode as logically it is a possibility, abet a slim one.  

Fact is, you leave your Raptor on -- nothing bad happens.   Some of us (Serowbot, Oldfeller) leave our Raptors on all the time as a matter of habit, only shutting it off for any long term storage periods.   Raptors don't cause any known failure modes that have any identifiable frequency even when left on.

Vac petcocks however WILL FAIL INSIDE THEMSELVES DUE TO RUBBER AGEING on a almost certainty basis over a 5-15 year period.   Vac petcocks as a separate system have 5 known failure modes and ARE KNOWN to put gasoline down into the sump with some of them.

When using normal pump gasolines (not fancy nitro racing fuel) no Raptor petcock has ever failed in 20 years and 100s of thousands of installations on both RVs and Savages.   They just work.  

And if your float valve assembly isn't in sorry shape to begin with, Raptors do work flawlessly in the Savage motorcycle.

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« Last Edit: 06/21/12 at 10:19:25 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #4 - 06/19/12 at 11:27:44
 
Have anyone tryed out the petcock from the suzuki AX-100
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/488282017/AX100_motorcycle_and_various_Chin...
Looks like a fit !
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #5 - 06/19/12 at 14:17:05
 
DangMan wrote on 06/19/12 at 11:27:44:
Have anyone tryed out the petcock from the suzuki AX-100
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/488282017/AX100_motorcycle_and_various_Chin...
Looks like a fit !


That looks like the one that was sent to me off ebay when I bought a raptor petcock, it works just fine.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #6 - 06/20/12 at 05:11:23
 
DangMan wrote on 06/19/12 at 11:27:44:
Have anyone tryed out the petcock from the suzuki AX-100
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/488282017/AX100_motorcycle_and_various_Chin...
Looks like a fit !


The petcock looks like it is made a bit cheaply......but it could work.

That link that you provided requires you order 300 at a minimum! Shocked
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #7 - 06/20/12 at 05:14:59
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 06/19/12 at 09:10:51:

In your explanation in the original post at the start of this thread you mention the float needle assembly sticking and  "Sometimes it runs onto the floor....sometimes it runs into the engine...but it may not always overflow if you forget to turn it off."

This statement is rather vague and can be a bit misleading to a newbie reader as it implies that gasoline "runs into the engine" is something that likely can happen to them with a Raptor.   This is not the case.


Well.....I hope you are right.  Last night I went for a ride, and this morning I realized I have not yet adapted to the new Raptor.....I forgot to shut it off after my ride.  On my trials bike it is just a habit and I always shut it off - while on my Savage I have gotten into the habit of just turning off the key.  I did not notice any gas on the floor this morning when I went into the garage.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #8 - 06/20/12 at 10:20:50
 
 
So Dave, you are now a certified member of the whole crowd of people who are "diligently looking for the very first Raptor gas in sump episode".

There are many many many of us and we are all looking jest as hard as we can.

We will find it, eventually .....   and when we do we will tell everybody all about the circumstances surrounding it.

Let's see -- it is very hard to park the bike pointing downhill as the kickstand only works when the bike is level or pointing uphill, so we tend to park the bike pointing uphill if ground tilt is an issue at all.

Next, the bike is always tilted sideways on the kickstand, which puts one of the float bowl overflows a bit lower than the venturi anyway.

Next, the venturi itself is a cone with the small (higher) end towards the engine and the big end towards the air box.  

Between the bike facing uphill and the bike being tilted to the side and the venturi being a cone with the taller side towards the engine, not much gas is going to climb up all those slopes to get up to the intake valves, which have to be open for the gas to drip into the cylinder, BTW.  

Spring pressure on the valve train and engine compression tends to make the engine kick back gently at close down to make sure the intake valves are shut -- that's what kick back is, compression and valve spring forces rotating the engine backwards towards piston bottom dead center, with the valves closed.  

Wink   Ain't kickback nice, especially since every big single has it as a built in feature.


The air box itself can hold a lot of leakage drops that naturally do run down hill into the air box, drops which will evaporate at about the same rate a leaker float valve assembly would release them.   Remember, a bad leaky float valve assembly leaks at a slow drops per minute rate, not a steady drizzle like a failed vac diaphragm would do.

In any case, we will all keep diligently looking, especially those of us that don't always turn the Raptor off because we are jest plumb too lazy.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #9 - 06/20/12 at 12:29:28
 
300, then I have some to spare Smiley
I know i shop here that have those in stock Smiley
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #10 - 06/21/12 at 05:43:10
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 06/20/12 at 10:20:50:
 
So Dave, you are now a certified member of the whole crowd of people who are "diligently looking for the very first Raptor gas in sump episode".


No I'm not.....I have deleted the offensive part of my original post.  I have modified it to suggest that if on the rare occurrence the float sticks - gas will run someplace.

I do however believe that it is a good idea to shut the petcock off, especially when the bike will not be ridden for a while.  As you know, the diaphragm petcock has a "PRIME" position for when the fuel evaporates out of the float bowl when the bike is not ridden for an extended period of time.  When the fuel evaporates from the float bowl the bike does not start right away......unless we first set the petcock to prime.  If you leave the Raptor petcok "ON", as the fuel evaporates and the float drops - some more fuel will flow into the float bowl.  My experience is (mostly from lawn equipment with gravity systems) -  the parts of the fuel that evaporate quickly will leave first, and what is left in the float bowl gradually becomes a high concentration of stuff that does not like to vaporize or burn....and it makes the engine hard to start.  This "stuff" that is in the float bowl can also become corrosive if it has a high concentration of ethanol.  
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #11 - 06/21/12 at 10:49:26
 
 
10% ethanol gas mix -- which part evaporates first?

That turns out to be a good question, one that gets involved in phase separation effects to answer it well.   The stuff will very slowly segregate (alky/water goes low) so gas tends to be up top to be what evaporates first once some separation takes place.

Key word here is SLOW, like it takes months sitting totally still to do it.   Short term, the still mixed by even by slight motions the 10% alkygas evaporates evenly.

Boat people discuss this stuff more than any other set of folks as they have boats that sit up in racks for months between uses.   BTW, they believe in Marine Stabil to keep the gas mixed and healthy in long storage.   And they really do avoid buying alky gas -- they b-atch some about premium gas not really being premium any more as they HAVE to buy it trying to avoid the alcohol mixed stuff ....

HOWEVER, these same boat people, they say higher E rated fuels have the fuel separation issues in a more pronounced and much more rapid fashion.   And they hate E85 with a purple passion as one tank full can cause some older style fiberglass tankage (common on boats) to lose resin from the tank fiber glass matrix into the 85% alcohol fuel making a right noxious residue laden mixture to try to combust inside an engine.

While we are waiting and watching for our float valve assemblies to start leaking on us, we can also keep a weather eye out for any gasoline effects due to E10 and higher fuels.   Tank rust, stuff like that too.

I mean, we are all gonna be lookin' hard every day, so we WILL see it if it happens.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #12 - 06/21/12 at 11:52:44
 
Great post, thanks!
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #13 - 06/23/12 at 12:14:19
 
Awesome post and pictures! I have been on the fence in regard to changing over to the Raptor 660 petcock, but with my bike doing the occasional out of the blue RPM drop, I'm going to order one of those puppies today.
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Re: A Chapter on the Raptor........
Reply #14 - 07/01/12 at 22:38:01
 
I "Drank the Cool-Aide" over a year ago. I never turn off the petcock and I have never had a problem of any kind. I consider the Raptor mod the best investment to this bike that I have made to date...and I have made a bunch of chances.
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