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synthetic oil? (Read 1868 times)
Oldfeller--FSO
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #90 - 02/29/12 at 15:03:23
 
 
Do I get to rub T6 all over myself during the wedding, or is that just a Klotz thing that you Klotz guys do?

That Royal Purple stuff, if I wuz a fan of that stuff would I become "slippery royalty"?

Amisol, what does that do to a girl's skin?


Grin   Grin   Grin   Grin


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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #91 - 02/29/12 at 15:12:13
 
 
Dozerman, since you provided the excuse for this latest episode of "the endless oil war" I gots me a question or two for you.

Do you understand the Catch 22 that the Savage is in, with the antique flat tappet valve train (1200 PPM ZDDP) and the wet clutch slip requirements (JASO MA or MA2 bike oils -- no car oils)?

Next, since you know that the synthetic oils seem to be kinda prevalent for the flat tappet 1200 ZDDP part of the issue and that the JASO marking are right in the same place as the weight and SAE ratings are you equipped to pick you out an oil?

What oil are you going to choose?
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #92 - 02/29/12 at 16:10:42
 
 
Back to the extended oil drain interval thingie again, some new information ....

Shell Oil achieves INDEFINITE oil drain interval:  Shell Oil has utilized GCF By-Pass filters and the GCF P/M Program on their engines within the Gulf of Mexico for over eight years.  After two years of rigorous testing and extending oil drains further and further, Shell Oil now only performs an oil drain when laboratory analysis deems it necessary.  Some of their equipment have not had a “routine” oil drain in over eight years.  Shell personnel now service By-Pass filters and sample their equipment with the portable oil analysis units on a routine basis.  Complete laboratory analysis is performed on a quarterly basis.  Extending lube oil drains by the use of  UF By-Pass filters and this P/M Program has streamlined their lube oil maintenance operations, drastically reduced their downtime, and shown dramatic savings on new oil purchases and disposal cost of waste oil.

http://gulfcoastfilters.com/understanding_lube_oil_and_its_j.htm

Source of this tidbit comes from the following Gulfcoast Filters source, a bypass filter mgf who is pushing the boundaries on oil life through better filtration, removing all the soot which Retread mentioned as the source for his oil requiring 10,000 mile replacement.

Interesting that oil analysis equipment is now hand-held, wonder how much it costs to purchase these days.

BTW, THE USA ARMY believes in infinite oil life now, and tests rather than replaces by rote.

Things can sure change on you when your back is turned, count on it.


NAME:  Jeff
LEAD FROM:
DATE:
UNIT ID: JEFRN#1
COMPANY:
NOTES: CAT C15 in Western Star
10-7-03- Miles 319366 (copy not mailed) everything normal.
11-18-03 Miles 330,850, mailed copy.
1-30-04- Received report, mailed copy, normal.
2-25-04- Rec’d report, normal, Miles 361,000
3-12-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 370,481, mailed copy.
4-20-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 380,490, mailed copy.
5-14-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 390,056, mailed copy.
6-22-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 400,302, mailed copy.
8-1-04- Rec’d report, normal, miles 412, 000, mailed copy.
8-18-04- Rec’d report, normal, soot at 0.3, miles 420,231, mailed copy.
9-21-04- Rec’d report, suspect coolant leak, high copper high sodium, Jeff is suppose to take truck to Cat dealer to try and find problem, Changed OIL – 1st in 430,000 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11-17-04- Rec’d sample, 1st since engine was repaired for coolant leak. Sample is normal, soot at 0.0. Mailed copy.
12-13-04- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy.
1-15-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.0, mailed copy.
2-15-05-Rec’d sample, normal , soot at 0.2, silicon at 22
3-17-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy.
4-22-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy.
5-19-05- Rec’d sample, normal, soot at 0.2, mailed copy.


This above is "relatively normal results", for best in class on a dino oil see below.


http://gulfcoastfilters.com/1,000,000%20MILES.htm

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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #93 - 02/29/12 at 16:19:03
 
I'm loading up my sniper and oldfeller's right in my scope.

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/28/12 at 00:14:48:
Ok, so you don't want to specify what you really meant.   But it sounds like "motorcycle oils" are the subset you want to limit your point to cover. All I see is Harley Davidson oil, is that "motorcycle oil"?   How about this MX oil I see over here, it has a wheeling dirt bike on the label -- is it "motorcycle oil"?


That's not what I meant at all. I said "oil for motorcycles." Read it for what it is. "Motorcycle oil" is more specific and NOT what I meant. The user of the oil is the one that ultimately decides if a said oil is for motorcycle engines, hopefully based on manufacturer's recommendations. Although I shouldn't need to say this, but this is based on the assumption that motorcycles should be using oil for motorcycles to run properly.

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/28/12 at 12:31:34:
But yes, this is America and you can put in any sort of oil you like into your Savage.


This is the best thing I have heard all year.

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/28/12 at 15:36:04:
Castrol has a long long American history of good car oils and the GTX is their bread and butter grade of automotive dino oil.

Grin    Grin    Grin    Grin



No, it is NOT automotive oil. It is MOTOR oil. It can be used with, but not limited to, automobiles, motorcycles, lawn mowers, chain saws, leaf blowers, tractor trailer trucks and your personal motor home, AT owner's discretion. Perhaps you should consider changing your wording (Wink) to be less specific and more accurate.

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/29/12 at 16:10:42:
Changed OIL – 1st in 430,000 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My point exactly. This isn't the 1960s.


Now for something more relevant. I have used Castrol GTX 10W-40 for 9000 original miles and I have had no engine problems.
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #94 - 02/29/12 at 16:32:24
 
 
Feelinjunky feels that he is free to use whatever sort of car oil (if it uses only the car oil SAE symbols on the jug then it is car oil by definition) he wants to, including a car oil that the oil manufacturer (Castrol) specifically does not recommend for the flat tappet style cam actuators having stated in a letter that they removed the required ZDDP at the SM changeover due to government regulations.

That's nice.    Did the government regulate that your tappets wouldn't wear out or you clutch might slip from the moly that they substituted in for the ZDDP that they removed?

Grin   Grin   Grin

I heard the shots but I haven't felt any hits yet -- do keep on shooting though as that is all part of the fun.



wwwweeeet !!   wwwweeeet !!   wwwweeeet !!  

                             Roll Eyes


Next, is he gonna say his cam chain isn't wearing prematurely when he gets to 18,000 miles and has to put in his slavy fix?
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #95 - 02/29/12 at 16:39:27
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/29/12 at 12:07:53:
Retread,  Bill likes you.  You got your mortar working correctly and got one off and he has done run out of mortar rounds long long ago.   Bill makes no real points any more and cannot seem to find any real information, so his +1 means a lot when it shows up under your post -- he's rooting fer ya.   Keep it up !!!

Bill, Suzuki recommends Suzuki oil (duh!)

Retread, 10,000 miles / 65mph / 24 hrs = 6.4 open road days.  

I doubt many people ever played the oil change game out to 100,000 miles with a dino oil very often (it was a braggin' rights stunt and was likely very carefully done) but I also doubt that truckers go around changing out their oil every week, even back in the day when you were driving.

And I did say (rebuilt) as in cost to do a good cylinder, pistons, mains, rods and upper end job, not like buying a new motor which most truckers don't do since they generally keep a fresh rebuilt motor around.


Keep on shooting guys, eventually you will get around to your Castrol GTX oil to say something good it does in a Savage engine.


 
  I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational...  :'(

   Yes every week is the norm for most OTR team operation oil changes, IF they are using dino oil (Most are not anymore). But filter changes? In the Owner Operator trucks I know of they are taking analysis on their synthetics every 10K, most are not team operations, most are changing filters at 15-20K, this adds 2-5 gallons of fresh oil, then they run the oil to 100K+... I know you couldn't log an avg of over 50mph in my day or the DOT/ICC/ and other officials would rack your butt... I'm sure there have been changes, but most drivers I still comunicate with say they are for the worse.. Like my Dad used to say after driving for 35 years, "If there was any money in it, I'd still be driving." ....  Wink

  I'll let you know (And post some pics) of my cam and tappets upon inspection.. I can tell you this, IF I was running a race engine, I would be using a high quality synthetic. If you want I can order you some Amsoil? Cool
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #96 - 02/29/12 at 16:42:10
 
Retread wrote on 02/29/12 at 16:39:27:
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/29/12 at 12:07:53:
Retread,  Bill likes you.  You got your mortar working correctly and got one off and he has done run out of mortar rounds long long ago.   Bill makes no real points any more and cannot seem to find any real information, so his +1 means a lot when it shows up under your post -- he's rooting fer ya.   Keep it up !!!

Bill, Suzuki recommends Suzuki oil (duh!)

Retread, 10,000 miles / 65mph / 24 hrs = 6.4 open road days.  

I doubt many people ever played the oil change game out to 100,000 miles with a dino oil very often (it was a braggin' rights stunt and was likely very carefully done) but I also doubt that truckers go around changing out their oil every week, even back in the day when you were driving.

And I did say (rebuilt) as in cost to do a good cylinder, pistons, mains, rods and upper end job, not like buying a new motor which most truckers don't do since they generally keep a fresh rebuilt motor around.


Keep on shooting guys, eventually you will get around to your Castrol GTX oil to say something good it does in a Savage engine.


 
  I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational...  :'(

   Yes every week is the norm for most OTR team operation oil changes, IF they are using dino oil (Most are not anymore). But filter changes? In the Owner Operator trucks I know of they are taking analysis on their synthetics every 10K, most are not team operations, most are changing filters at 15-20K, this adds 2-5 gallons of fresh oil, then they run the oil to 100K+... I know you couldn't log an avg of over 50mph in my day or the DOT/ICC/ and other officials would rack your butt... I'm sure there have been changes, but most drivers I still comunicate with say they are for the worse.. Like my Dad used to say after driving for 35 years, "If there was any money in it, I'd still be driving." ....  Wink  Oh almost forgot, a inframe rebuild on a 3406 Cat is running right at 20K right now...

  I'll let you know (And post some pics) of my cam and tappets upon inspection.. I can tell you this, IF I was running a race engine, I would be using a high quality synthetic. If you want I can order you some Amsoil? Cool    

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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #97 - 02/29/12 at 17:16:42
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/29/12 at 16:32:24:
(if it uses only the car oil SAE symbols on the jug then it is car oil by definition)


It says Motor Oil in caps on the bottle. That doesn't restrict it to car use.
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #98 - 02/29/12 at 17:55:21
 
 
When you go out into the churned earth of an oil war, it helps to take the other guy's bible with you so you can do some light reading on what he believes.

Here is Feelinjunky's source material that he keeps referencing .....  it shows he is going for source information at the very root of the oil industry.

http://www.moneybluebook.com/the-3000-mile-oil-change-myth-save-your-money/



They are talking cars here, and when we are talking 100,000 mile oil changes we were talking big diesel rigs,
but this here oil war thread is REALLY about a 650cc single cylinder motorcycle engine that has a wet clutch and tappets ......


     Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 02/29/12 at 22:01:24 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #99 - 02/29/12 at 18:25:41
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 02/29/12 at 16:10:42:
 BTW, THE USA ARMY believes in infinite oil life now, and tests rather than replaces by rote.

The US Army has been doing oil analysis (Army Oil Analysis Program AOAP) since at least the late 80's ,when I enlisted. I was in for 7 years and don't remember doing many oil changes the whole time. We changed oil on generators more often than any other equipment.

As long as what ever oil each person decides to use: as long as it meets or exceeds JASO MA, MA2 standards then you are good to go. I'll keep using Rotella synthetic.
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #100 - 02/29/12 at 19:40:15
 
Probably gonna use Amsoil 10w40 oil for motorcycles. I don't mind paying 15 bucks a quart. My. Wife rides everyday to work and every weekend . The bike only takes two quarts. I run 20w50 v-twin amsoil in my bike and it runs cooler and when I recently did a valve job everything was clean and like brand new, with very little wear (11500 miles) Like I said I was only concerned about clutch slippage. I'm sure that both of the oils mentioned are adequate but I prefer the brand amsoil . Just my two cents Rich
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #101 - 02/29/12 at 19:44:43
 

I admit that GTX is not what it used to be, but other additives exist to take the place of your precious ZDDP... When a oil has a API rating of SM, this brings it above and beyond the lube SE-SF rating that Suzuki recomends.. Sorry but your insistence on your rotty oil being better for the Suzuki is just not rational...


Retread, Suzuki references an old spec on purpose -- SE-SF were the heydays of big ZDDP numbers when it was up at or over 12,000 PPM and all was good in flat tappet land.   By telling you to get that grade, what is Suzuki trying to tell you?    

Could it be a top secret code which simply says "Get a high detergent 10W40 oil with a lot of ZDDP in it and completely avoid the nasty moly that comes into play after SF."?

When SM came in, ZDDP dropped way down to <8,000 ppm and moly appeared in car oils for the first time as a widespread "normal additive" to try to make up the difference.   Your Castrol people admit to this in the letter (it wasn't a secret at the time either).  

Bikes had lots of problems with SM oils -- bad ones.    JASO standards (wet clutch based testing) came into being to sort out the disaster in motorcycle oil land.

Your assumption that "newer than SF is automatically better" is severely flawed logic when it comes to flat tappet engines with wet clutches.  

Your implied logic that that the new SN is going to get even better yet is LUDICROUS ...   we are looking forward to new levels of bureaucratic nonsense to show forth with that new standard which is intended to support the new CAFE regulations.    

Hey, you guys go pour some Castrol GTX SN grade into your Savage and tell us all about how great it is ....  

Go ahead, we know you and Feelinjunky are jest gonna have to go do it.  

Hells Bells, Bill has better sense than that !!!    

"It ain't a motorcycle oil" sez Bill



Grin    Grin    Grin    Grin    Grin     Grin



 
And the winner of this here oil war is $15 a quart JASO MA MA2 rated Amisol 10w40



..... everybody fires their klashnikovs up into the air in celebration, the war is over fer now.

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« Last Edit: 02/29/12 at 22:34:08 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #102 - 03/01/12 at 03:43:16
 
Hey Bill67.. Sea Foam > Klotz.. yeah I said it.. what you gonna do? I just bought a gallon for $45.. I'm selling shots of it for $5 + you get a free can of Pabst Blue Ribbon...
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #103 - 03/01/12 at 04:48:07
 
Good boy Built 66
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Re: synthetic oil?
Reply #104 - 03/01/12 at 07:26:02
 
 You can lead to some common sense, but you can't get em to drink it....   You can get on this box and find a failure linked to every brand and weight of oil out there, every oil soaked blogger in cyberland has one or two..

  According to my sources, just stay away from fuel saving 0- dinos and you'll be OK.. Like I stated before I am using the GTX for a breakin oil, and might change it to Amsoil before I sell this machine in a couple months.. I do NOT have a racing engine, just a light cam and some port work..

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

  The basic API testing procedures have not changed over the years, just become MORE stringent.. "For all gasoline engines"  definition is still the same, even if ZDDP levels are lower.. And the levels of this will continue to drop in all.. Pretty quick we all will have to refine out own from our own source of teradactyl poop... Thanks for the memorys, but a shot over the bow has not won the war.... Grin
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