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Engine Tapping (Read 142 times)
rhvcmjack
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Engine Tapping
09/24/11 at 11:42:21
 
I have a 95 Savage that was run without oil.  After rebuilding the engine, a loud tapping is present.  This issue has been addressed many times in this forum, and i've tried all of the recommendations, but the tapping in my engine persists.  Here is the history.

-after running with no oil, camshaft journals were worn beyond repair.  Engine was rebuilt with used cylinder head and cover.  
-replaced camshaft with new and checked the journal clearance with plastigage.  The range was .002 - .005, which is within tolerance.  
-started the bike and noticed tapping noise comming from the upper end of the engine.  It is barely noticable at idle.  While holding higher rpms, it is very loud.  Once i let go of the throttle, it taps eratically until back at idle.  Sounds like a classic case of valves tapping to me.  
-verified valve clearance with my feeler gauge.  I had it set at .004, so i reset it to .003 if not tighter.  
-started the bike and had no change to the tapping condition.
-replaced the timing chain as it was slightly out of tolerance, so i thought maybe the tapping was actually from the chain slapping as i've read about in this forum.  At this point, i was very carefull to make sure that all timing marks were dead on and that i was at TDC before putting the cover on.  Then, i was carefull to make sure i was at TDC on the compression stroke(waited for the intake rocker to go down) before setting the valve clearance.  
-started the bike and no change at all.  
-now i'm frustrated, but curious as to the cause, so i opened it back up and started taking measurements of all the parts and pieces to make sure they have not worn beyond tolerance.  With my dial indicator, caliper and micrometer, i measured everything listed in my service manual(Suzuki not Clymers).  I basically took the whole engine apart again and none of the parts are worn out of specifications.  The rocker arms had a little indentation from contact with the cam, so i replaced them.
-after re-assembly, i started the bike and had the same result.
I'm 90% convinced it is not mechanical, so i started looking at the electrical side of things.  
-i took resistence measurements on the ignition coil, pickup coil and the ignitor.  The only issue was the ignitor.  The measurements were not quite what the book said.  Could this be the cause?  I was under the impression the bike would not start if the ignitor was faulty.
-i also looked at the rotor key to make sure it didn't break.  Then, I started the bike while using the timing light.  The timing mark seems to advance with higher RPMs, but i can't tell how much .  

I've included about as much as i can in the hopes that someone might have another suggestion for me to try.  I remember the bike having a tapping noise before the oil incident, but not like this.  Thanks in advance for any inputs.
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Serowbot
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #1 - 09/24/11 at 11:55:14
 
Sounds like you know a lot more than I do, so I can't be much help....

... is it possible that the valve springs were weakened from the overheating?...

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Oldfeller--FSO
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #2 - 09/24/11 at 12:42:58
 

There are bent tension washers that go in line with the rocker mounting pins that "pre-tension" the rocker arms so they always cleanly follow the cam profile instead of just rattling around in the valve clearance.

Bet you didn't pre-bend them enough to get a good rocker arm tension ....

The rocker arms should always stay where you put them, never fall down by their own weight.


This is what the pre-tensioners are all about -- noise reduction.


========================


YOU PERMITTED YOUR CAM JOURNALS TO FLOAT AROUND INSIDE THE STOCK SUZUKI .002"'-.005" JOURNAL CLEARANCE ????

Aaaaaaaugh !!

What a waste !!

Think of it this way -- when our valves are set tight at .003" clearance our tappet noise is pretty minimal.   When it gets to .005" or more they get noisy (and we all know that)  

Take your .003" you set them to.  Now add .005" worth of journal slop into that equation .....  what can the result be?

Undecided   noisy
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rhvcmjack
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #3 - 09/24/11 at 13:45:23
 
Thanks for the replies.  Oldfeller, i believe it is your posting about refitting the cam journals.  I read it a while ago, but didn't feel it was necessary at the time, now i'm thinking otherwise.  It seems that i need to give it a try to get the oil clearance closer to the standard.  Also, i will bend the pre-tension washer a bit more.  The rockers do fall on their own weight.  I figured that as long as the journal clearance is within the limit of .006, they would be fine.  Your reply clarifies this for me a lot better though.
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #4 - 09/24/11 at 16:55:25
 
Update...I took off enough metal from the cover to get all the journals to .002.  I also bent the pre-tension washers a little more to hold the rockers in place.  Unfortunately, the tapping is still there.  I don't want to throw in the towel yet, but i'm wondering if i should have just bought a new head and cover instead of used.
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #5 - 09/24/11 at 18:04:58
 
I feel your pain,.... and know you really don't want to give up yet.   Grasping at straws, eh?    Sad    Tongue    Embarrassed

Well, here's another straw at which to grasp:



A mechanic's stethoscope.   I've had one like this for quite a while.  I've used it several times to try to track down a mysterious engine noise.  I'll admit more often than not, it didn't help at all.  

A few times, though, it did.  I had a Fiat 128 once that had a tapping in it.  I went crazy trying to find the noise.  I even took the engine apart at about 30,000 miles.  It looked brand new and nothing was loose.  Grasping at straws, after I had put it back together, I bought the stethoscope and within a few minutes I discovered the noise was in the very bottom of the engine!  How could that be?  There's nothing down there in the oil pan,....

            except,...

                              on a Fiat 128,,...

                                                         the oil pump!

Sure enough, I replaced the oil pump and drove the thing for another 150,000 miles with no noises.

Another time a gyro buddy had a strange noise when his rotor was speeding up using the prerotater.  The noise wasn't there at slow speed or normal speed,.. only when prerotating up to speed.  We thought for sure it was one of the bearings, but before we replaced them, we used the stethoscope.  Turned out it was one of the plates on the rotor mount that was not fastened down properly -- creating some slight movement that made a squeak at a certain rrpm.

Anyway, you might consider one of these things.  They are cheap.  Amazon, for example has them for $15 or so.


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« Last Edit: 09/24/11 at 20:23:44 by Gyrobob »  

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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #6 - 09/25/11 at 16:59:53
 
I too am having a very similar experience. The PO run the bike with the drive gear on the clutch basket reversed. I have fixed that, sanded the cover, and now have 3 ½ to 4 psi hot running oil pressure in the cam journals. Adjusted the valves, and checked a couple of time. The CC plunger is out ~ 13 -14. Will do the Versy mod this winter. (Too much fun ridding to shut it down right now.)

It still has a fairly loud and consistent tapping or light knock. When it’s cold you don’t hear it, but when it warms up and the oil is running temp it is all ways there. It is my guess that it could be the piston to wrist pin clearance.

I am new to ridding and have enjoyed almost 3k on this bike and loving it. The sound doesn’t seem to be growing or getting much worse, so it was my plan to enjoy the rest of the season and during the off season pull the piston.

Oh great SS gurus  Smiley what do you think? I really respect you insights, and many years of experience.
Smiley
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #7 - 09/25/11 at 17:20:16
 
Grand Strand wrote on 09/25/11 at 16:59:53:
....................It is my guess that it could be the piston to wrist pin clearance..........so it was my plan to enjoy the rest of the season and during the off season pull the piston.
Smiley


Before you do anything drastic like piston pulling, use the stethoscope.  You'll be surprised at how the sounds are different at the top, middle, and bottom of the motor.

If your finances can't come up with $15, use a long screwdriver.  Put the pointy end of the screwdriver on various areas to be listened to, and put the rounded end (handle) on your ear hole.  Stick a finger in the other earhole.   This poorman's stethoscope isn't as clear and obvious as the real one, but it can work in blatant situations.

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Engine Tapping
Reply #8 - 09/25/11 at 23:48:16
 
Use that ear hole AND use the bone in front of the ear,see what you can figure out.. Good Luck,..,
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