SuzukiSavage.com - Torque woes...

blackhalo

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Torque woes...
06/27/11 at 18:22:11

So I've been experimenting with a baffled straight pipe (downturn/slashcut)...
various baffles, from small louvered (10% blocked) to four way spikes (80% blocked)... packed and unpacked.

I got some interesting sounds, mostly too loud...
but then I began putting two baffles in at the same,
things started to sound a lot better... warm!

Now I haven't rejetted, or tuned anything yet...
but the most obvious problem I'm having is the loss of power in first gear,
it's just mush... no get-up-and-go!

After I rejet, will I get some of this power back?
I mean, the bike just feels weak.

Out of curiosity, I put the old exhaust back on (after a few weeks)...
now the power is back, but all the old issues are too.

It's hard to start, slight lurching for the first 5 minutes of riding, always backfiring...
so it basically runs like crap (this '09 bike only has 1200 miles on it!!!!).
Did I mention it sounds like a hairdryer?

Roll Eyes

I've read the forums UP and DOWN... I've bookmarked various carb and rejet posts (which are excellent, I might add)...
but I'm still unclear... can I get the power back with a baffled straight pipe?

If so, where exactly do I find it... is it in the rejetting?

I'm considering just tweaking the exhaust,
then taking it to a dealer to performance tune it...
is that a bad idea?

I imagine they'll charge an arm-and-a-leg for a carb rejet...
and they'll probably only run it once, turn the screw and send it back to me...
does that sound about right?

I'm not afraid of the carb...
but I REALLY don't know how to tune it well (after I rejet)...
and I REALLY want my power back!!!!!!

Any advice?

P.S. Sorry for the long post,
this one has been weighing on me for a month now...

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justin_o_guy2

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What happened?

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #1 - 06/27/11 at 18:35:26

I'm considering just tweaking the exhaust,
then taking it to a dealer to performance tune it...
is that a bad idea?

Yep,,bad idea.. you can do it yerself & youll learn a lot & you wont have to worry about them scewin it up & rippin you off for a load O $$$. Whats your elevation above sea level?
Ohh, go with a KNown Good Exhaust design, No one is gonna be able to really help wih tuning on an unknown exhaust design. Thats MY Opinion,, someone else may jump right in & be able to guide ya thru..

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Boofer

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #2 - 06/27/11 at 18:57:33

To be very elementary, the engine is an air pump. Imagine it as water if you like. The flow must be optimized from the air filter to the exhaust. Mufflers are designed to hold or scavenge the exhaust gases as needed and help pull in the gas charge. This happens so fast it is amazing to me it works at all. Suzuki designed their muffler to work correctly in a wide range of circumstances. It's called driveability. You messed that up. Go big or stay at home. Start at the air box and slowly open that up as you put in a slightly larger main jet (150) and maybe an idle jet (60?) You may be able to get by with a carb spacer mod. Then see what you can do with the muffler. I have not done this on the Savage But it's regular auto mechanicing, or was when I grew up before fuel injecting. Take one step at a time and write down what you do. This is a single cylinder bike made for torque imo. Several on here have streetable bikes they have spent time and money on. They are happy with them and can help you a lot. Mine is set to run in fifth gear all day long and pass from 50-75 mph. It is not as quick as it was, but it's ok for my use where I ride.

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2001 Black, Spitfire windshield, Headlight upgrade, Sissy rack, Tool bag, Fork bag, Harley muffler, Memory foam seat, Crash bars. Hwy pegs, Raptor.

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Serowbot

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #3 - 06/27/11 at 19:00:25

An open exhaust will never have good torque... Jetting will help performance some, and is needed for engine reliability, but it won't bring all that torque back...
Open pipes can make good power and even good torque numbers,... but the powerband is narrow and very high in the rev range...

That's why Harley shorty mufflers are so popular here... They will give a nice tone, and you don't loose your wide torqueband...

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blackhalo

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #4 - 06/27/11 at 19:40:57

The exhaust isn't open tho... it's got two baffles, about 16" long!
So I've got backpressure, I just didn't get the torque back.

As far as rejetting goes, I should just buy a variety of jets...
then trial and error until something feels right... what range exactly?
(start at 150... up to???)

Like I said, I'm not afraid to rejet... but it's the actual "tuning" I don't fully understand...
I read something about 4th gear, 1/4 turn on the throttle??

I city drive, so I just want my low gears back...
nothing more disappointing than taking off from a stop light,
and feeling like a golf cart could beat you out. haha!

Anyone have pics of a crosscut stock muffler?
I'd love to see what it actually looks like inside.

P.S. Figured the dealer was a bad idea, I just don't trust them...
my elevation above sea level is about 5 feet... I'm literally 2 minutes from the beach
(which is great, when you're not working on your bike in the carport... no garage).

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Max_Morley

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #5 - 06/27/11 at 21:37:06

Maybe too much baffles? If you follow the SuperTrapp bit, they tune the restriction by adding or subtracting outlet discs to balance the performance and noise level you want. Having tried many options from a Raask straight pipe w/o and with a muffler, a Supertrapp, a glasspac, I settled on the HD dyna as the best and cheapest option. Bagger has one with a center baffle and rated at 80 db on the HD. Sidecar tug has one off a 1340 cc HD that is longer as I wanted the torque and sound to exit past the car. Again a 80 db sound level on a HD, have no idea what it is on the Savage. Just works great, no frowns on people faces from noise and great acceleration from the get go on both bikes. There are some excellent posts here on here from those who played with baffle design. Use the search feature and set it to go back a number of years. Not sure exactly what words to use. Maybe some one has bookmarked them. They should be in the tech section. Max

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Max at Thumper Acres. '96 Savage bagger, '03 Savage w/Cozy sidecar for wifeni.

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Serowbot

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #6 - 06/28/11 at 00:23:43

Here's my basic carb jetting advice... FWIW...

Quote:

First off,... jetting is never perfect... it's a matter of getting a good average... Because perfect jetting is only perfect for the precise conditions that you are jetted for,.. and this changes hour by hour, day by day, and mile by mile...
What you are looking for, is a good average...

The exhaust pipe will go gold first, then blue, then blue black. It means hot, hotter, hotter. Running lean or rich can cause it, so can idling, traffic, or just hot weather...
If this is new to your bike it may be environmental, or may indicate a blockage in a jet...
Once a pipe is blued,.. it won't go away by changing jetting... until the blue is removed with Blue Job or other product it's there to stay,... so jetting by pipe color is not practical...

In general...

thinner air = less oxygen = go leaner
hotter air = go leaner
more humidity = go leaner
higher altitude = go leaner

thicker air = more oxygen = go richer
cooler air = go richer
less humid = go richer
lower altitude = go richer

Barometric pressure effects jetting in a big way, humidity, air temp, and elevation. Some places have extreme variations in barometric pressures and if you live there, your pipe will blue. I live in the high desert and temps can change 40 degrees f in a couple hours, humidity can vary wildly too. No way to jet for that.
Gold and blue are pretty!

A good indicator of overall jetting is the weather...if popping/backfiring increases on humid days, or at higher elevation, that indicates rich....less popping at those times indicates lean.

Drill out the brass plug on the idle mix screw... adjust for smooth and steady idle... if it needs more than 3 turns out, go one step larger on the pilot jet. The pilot jet will have an effect on MPG's... If you want good gas mileage, don't get carried away there...

The needle jet is adjusted by varying the spacer thickness under the plate that mounts the needle to the slide... this has the biggest effect on acceleration and in the midrange area... Say 60+ mph cruising, and half throttle acceleration...

To test the main, accelerate from 30 or 40 mph, in 4th or 5th gear at full throttle for several seconds, then reduce throttle by about 1/8,...if power increases for a second, you are lean on the main jet. Go up one jet size and test again.

Jets are incrementally additive.... starting with the idle mix, then pilot, then needle, then main... Each jet adds it's volume to the next in line... Wide open throttle is accessing all of them, so changes in one, adds to next and the next..
I start at the bottom, and work my way up.... idle, pilot, needle, then main...

Note#...#4 Teflon washer from Ace hardware is exactly 2/3 thickness of the stock spacer and will fit perfect. It comes in white or black. It is just what you want. One and only one. It will measure .066",... stock is .1"... that''s the standard starting point for a Harley muffler w/ free flow air filter....

I've now posted this tutorial in the tech section...
Serowbot's carb jetting tips for beginners...

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« Last Edit: 06/28/11 at 02:34:06 by Serowbot »

Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh

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dasch

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #7 - 06/28/11 at 01:50:57

For reference: I had to rejet (larger jets - more fuel) when I went from stock to WIDE open 2'' muffler without baffles. Some HD performance piece I got on ebay cheap.

What you did seems to be the oposite. You went from stock to stealth exhaust, it makes no sence it needs MORE fuel.

In your shoes - I'd remove one of two baffles and test. It seems you closed it (sounds like a hair dryer??) too much. Hell, remove both and test. Find the problem first, before you apply a solution. Wink

Post what happened.

And-oh, don't take it to the dealer. Specially not in that "super turbo nitrous tuning shoot-for-effect" shop down the street. I doubt "performance" shops ever played with this classic thumper. It will cost a bundle too. Wink

Time to get hands dirty.

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blackhalo

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #8 - 06/28/11 at 11:53:14

Thanks guys, I'll guess I'll just have to do more tests!

For the record, I've tested 6 different baffles styles (8" each)...
with a variety of different glasspack, ranging from standard fiberglass insulation to stove gasket rope (for wood burning stoves)...
I've tried one baffle, two baffles, three baffles... packed, unpacked, etc... I've been doing this for weeks now.

I've even tried three different aftermarket mufflers...
a true shorty glasspack, a cocktail shaker, and now a straight slashcut,
all of them lose low-end torque.

I've been testing DB levels at 25ft, it's down to 68DB at idle with a nice tone...
(much louder at WOT I'm sure... but I'm not worried about that)

What sounds like a "hairdryer" is the STOCK muffler... my custom mods sound better than anything I've seen on Youtube...
except maybe the Supertrapp (but I'd really have to hear it in person)... and even then, people complain it's too loud.

Mine is not too loud, it's almost perfect... I just want the power back... it's not snappy in the low gears anymore...
so I guess I'm trying to decide where to make changes first... where is that power hiding?

If I don't have to rejet, I would prefer not to...
I notice a lot of people make changes to their bike, just because.
I (understand the impulse, but) don't want to do that, my bike isn't that old.

I guess I'll just work my way through the process and hope for the best...
I suppose my real question is, has anyone successfully regained their low-end power after an exhaust change?

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blackhalo

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #9 - 06/28/11 at 12:01:42

And thank you Serowbot, for that tutorial... excellent!

Here's a few more good ones (for thread posterity):

Lancer's Straight & Simple Carb Tuning:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1157720585

Carb Jetting - A Progressive Guide:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1244217127

Great pics of carb breakdown:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1191899985/0#0

Excellent map of each Jet and it's purpose:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1104205157/1#1

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« Last Edit: 06/29/11 at 13:07:28 by blackhalo »

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Bubba Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 956 Denver, CO Gender:	Re: Torque woes... Reply #10 - 06/28/11 at 14:46:00 here's mine Gobs of power on the low end. I did have to rejet (see signature line). The big tab seems to provide the required backpressure and then beyond that there are little can-opener type baffles running down the pipe. I should note...my bike is LOUD. I have a friend that races supermoto and even he thinks it's LOUD
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dasch Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1137	Re: Torque woes... Reply #11 - 06/29/11 at 03:30:55 I got lowend power too. Rejetted, 55 idle, 150 main, needle raised one notch.
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Routy

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #12 - 06/29/11 at 04:39:52

I'm not sure you don't have another problem,.....loosing all this low end power just from changing to..... any kind of exhaust, open or baffled. Did it sound to me like even w/ the stock exhaust your bike is running ragged ?? If it were me, I would get it running correctly w/ the stock exhaust first,......even if it meant going to a Suzie dealer. Then modify slowly from there. I just don't think you should be experiencing this drastic loss of power that you describe, if there wasn't a problem in the first place.
In my day, I have taken lots of mufflers off,.....cars and bikes,......run straight pipes,........till I got busted, and I never had any noticable loss of power,....in fact they always seemed to have more,......mostly illusion I know.

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Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)

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arteacher

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Re: Torque woes...
Reply #13 - 06/29/11 at 05:20:00

Routy wrote on 06/29/11 at 04:39:52:

I'm not sure you don't have another problem,.....loosing all this low end power just from changing to..... any kind of exhaust, open or baffled. Did it sound to me like even w/ the stock exhaust your bike is running ragged ?? If it were me, I would get it running correctly w/ the stock exhaust first,......even if it meant going to a Suzie dealer. Then modify slowly from there. I just don't think you should be experiencing this drastic loss of power that you describe, if there wasn't a problem in the first place.
In my day, I have taken lots of mufflers off,.....cars and bikes,......run straight pipes,........till I got busted, and I never had any noticable loss of power,....in fact they always seemed to have more,......mostly illusion I know.

+1. I agree with Routy. I put a Raask on mine and left the baffle in. I lost some low end torque, but not enough to worry about. (I didn't even notice it till someone mentioned that straight pipes cost you in low end torque). What I got in return was wicked acceleration on the highway. I will go to pass someone in 5th gear and before I know it I'm going 70 -80 mph. Shocked

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Torque woes... Reply #14 - 06/29/11 at 05:50:41 You don't know how much low end power you lose unless you tried some one on a high gear roll on with stock pipe ,then try it with a loud pipe,My brother and I have been doing that for years,And you lose the power were you need it and gain at speeds you don't normally drive.
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