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LS650 kick start conversion (Read 697 times)
Ed L.
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #15 - 10/25/10 at 18:39:05
 
You could go in through the left side cover using the inspection hole. There is the threaded end of the crank right there which would be the logical place to attach the linkage. If you could find something that is adapatable it would be kinda easy to do. Can't say that I would want to be on the receiving end of a 650 kickback, I've a little 250 Ducati that can bring tears to my eyes if I'm not careful kicking it over. If you catch a 650 in a bad mood it could break you leg. He11 it would just be something else that can fall off the bike. Cheesy
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #16 - 10/25/10 at 20:41:56
 
To add to the sport, it appears the electronic ignition on the S40 has a START signal from the starter switch which retards the spark while the starter is running. This no doubt eliminates kickback to avoid possible starter damage. You might want to implement this, along with the decompressor, to make kick starting somewhat less unpleasant.
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #17 - 10/25/10 at 20:56:01
 
Back in the sixties, I had  650 single Panther kick back at me so hard two things happened. The first was that it launched me over the bars head first. Then as I tried to stand my foot was in great pain. Removal of the boot stopped the pain.  upon examining the boot, I discovered the steel plate in the arch of the boot was buckled upwards so much I could not get the boot back on.
Considering that, do you really think it wise to kick start a 650 single.
Incidents like this were one of the primary reasons that 650 singles died out until the invention of the electric starter and its automatic compression release.

Phelonius
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #18 - 10/27/10 at 09:50:21
 
Phelonius wrote on 10/25/10 at 20:56:01:
Back in the sixties, I had  650 single Panther kick back at me so hard two things happened. The first was that it launched me over the bars head first. Then as I tried to stand my foot was in great pain. Removal of the boot stopped the pain.  upon examining the boot, I discovered the steel plate in the arch of the boot was buckled upwards so much I could not get the boot back on.
Considering that, do you really think it wise to kick start a 650 single.
Incidents like this were one of the primary reasons that 650 singles died out until the invention of the electric starter and its automatic compression release.

Phelonius


Ouch.....  so the glue a fake one on may be the best over-all option.  Grin
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #19 - 10/27/10 at 22:36:28
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 10/24/10 at 09:14:15:

Each new generation of newbies tries to put a turbo on the Savage and then tries to put a kickstarter on it ....

And it ain't even spring time yet !!!


Its something that some people like. everyones different.


plus have a bov on a savage would be pretty cool
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #20 - 10/27/10 at 22:50:32
 
The kick start is dead in the water but Oldfeller is braindead if he can't see how the LS is a perfect project for a turbo. In fact the 4 speed would be preferable and the low compression is just right while being a single the exhaust/intake is simple dumb! But what do I know?
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #21 - 10/27/10 at 23:27:22
 

Wouldn't nitrous be a little more reasonable path, both cost wise and easy wise?

Mind you, what percent increase in power are you trying to achieve anyway?

You got 29-30 hp stock (thereabouts)

To get a significant increase, you have to tag on 30% extra (10+hp) somehow or it ain't worth doing.

Getting exhaust gas flow to get enough boost powering a turbo would be tough due to the interrupted relatively low RPM pulse nature of our exhaust flow.

puff     puff    puff     puff     puff

No extra cylinders firing to make up the pressure gaps, so to speak.  That input power side of the turbo is seeing puffs of gas inter-spaced with -- well, nothing.  It isn't gonna spin up all that good and the lag effect might be a bit much.


I think getting great performance out of a turbo might be harder than you would think, apart from the high cost, all the custom bent stainless exhaust tubing and the maintenance problems.

Example -- don't turbos require a good flow of high pressure oil for their turbo bearings to survive?

How many PSI do you think you have available at idle for oil pressure on a Savage?   Something like 1-2 psi.    How much oil pressure does your proposed turbo's bearings require again?


==========================


Getting your 30% from nitrous would be straight forward enough I suppose, but such a large piston top area would have a tough time conducting away all the extra heat (a long long way from piston center to cylinder wall).   Fairly large shots of nitrous has been called "playing a blow torch on your spark plug" and allowances must be made for plugs and other heat related matters if you are running a significant charge of nitrous.

Still, there are ceramic piston top coatings that could help with piston burn through and there are special spark plugs available for nitrous use.  Alcohol and water injected with the charge can actually calm the blow torch effect to a very large degree, required if going over a mild nitrous charge on a big single like ours I would judge.

Spark voltage can be an issue with nitrous if you have marginal spark power -- nitrous "blows out the spark" as they say.
(me, I dunno -- I just read all this stuff in nitrous books at Barnes & Noble as I dream my own little dreams)


==========================


Next question would be "when would you want to use this extra power?"   So far no full Frankie bike has ever made it to the Dragon after 3 full years of Dragon runs.   I got no competition for what I have now.

I find I have all the power I need to ever use now, with the Stage 2 cam -- it is always available and it (so far, knock on aluminum) hasn't pushed my bike past the Frankie point into unreliability.

When my compression finally gets tired, I can go larger and higher compression on the next piston and start popping the dime for premium gas, until then I burn regular gas and just keep zooming along.

Plus there is nothing showing on my bike to scare off a Hurley (bottles and turbos tend to do that you know).   Killing Hurleys two at a time on mountain roads is an artform you know, it requires them to ASSume they can catch you relatively easily.   They won't try you know, not without thinking you are easy meat and just cranking on down & doing it.

Fat old Grandpa riding on a little single cylinder grandma bike -- that's just too tempting to ignore.

(and they don't, they go for it)      Grin

Lastly, my shoulders are starting to go (scraped rotator cuffs and arthritic joints) and it looks like my Hurley baiting days are gonna be numbered by mother nature soon enough anyway.

By the time any of you new guys actually put your super scoots together and make it to the Dragon I may be out of the competition anyway due to simple aging.
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #22 - 10/27/10 at 23:44:15
 
Buhhhuhhhh.....
If I wanted to go that fast,... I'd just crash another Ninja... Huh...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #23 - 10/27/10 at 23:49:23
 

Yup, you'd pay a whole lot to soup up a Savage to even get in the sandbox with a SV650 or a Ninja.

(you would have to DOUBLE your horsepower output !!!!)
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #24 - 10/28/10 at 00:18:55
 
So what if you just feel like playing with a Savage. Wrong? I can go buy a freakin' Hayabusa and do anything or nothing but........that's not the point. You don't get it? The only reason I have a Savage now is because my peers said, Huh? I have always liked doing more with less (except sexually) and that's the challenge.
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #25 - 10/28/10 at 00:25:12
 
Serowbot wrote on 10/27/10 at 23:44:15:
Buhhhuhhhh.....
If I wanted to go that fast,... I'd just crash another Ninja... Huh...

I'm calling you out here. We rode a bit and I think I can get the Savage to work right. I'm dialing in the suspension now. Is it working better then most bikes?
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #26 - 10/28/10 at 00:30:16
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 10/27/10 at 23:49:23:

Yup, you'd pay a whole lot to soup up a Savage to even get in the sandbox with a SV650 or a Ninja.

(you would have to DOUBLE your horsepower output !!!!)

Most guys in the sandbox can't use the toys they have. I really like having an underdog machine so I don't have to hear about what a fast bike I have. It happens anyway but nobody ever wants to swap rides Wink
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #27 - 10/28/10 at 06:50:23
 

I'm not criticizing your choices, obviously I have investigated the same thoughts and ran them forward into a "choice" to go with nitrous.

I even got me a spare engine (nitrous is very very hard on things mechanical).

Lancer picked greatly increased displacement and high compression and low weight for his 10+%, he's already bought all his parts and has built his Frankie (several times, as a matter of fact).

Thus was born the Frankie Effect correllary -- hop it up enough and it becomes unreliable.

So I hang back from my "big shot" nitrous dreams, waiting for a compelling reason to go full Frankie on one engine, keeping me a stock spare engine for when toast happens.

So, now you know.  

Go for it -- then bring your very expensive tricked up bike up to the Dragon run (Verslagen keeps threatening to drive a truck across country with his bike in it -- he can pick you up in Tucson as he drives on through).

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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #28 - 10/28/10 at 09:59:24
 
The more I look into the turbo idea the more it looks as though I may be eating crow for dinner. The most consistent argument is the singles pulses. It seems you'd have to run a ridicules idle just to keep the engine running. The next obstacle would be cooling the turbo.
I'm going to go read through my recipe book now and see what I can do to make crow taste like chicken.
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Re: LS650 kick start conversion
Reply #29 - 10/28/10 at 10:10:47
 
A modicum of biccardi will make it alright. Wink
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