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Coil or Ignitor? (Read 277 times)
LWRider
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Coil or Ignitor?
08/01/10 at 12:15:47
 
I have been slowly working at getting my old Savage to run. I did have it running earlier, but went back to working on the wiring as much of the system was bypassed by the former owner, such as the clutch switch, the decompression system, the neutral switch, et al.

I worked slowly and methodically yesterday putting all the wiring back to rights with a new decomp controller in place. I buttoned it all up yesterday afternoon and today took it out to start it and hopefully give it its first road test. No luck, although I could hear and see ther decomp working now the motor would not start. As I mentioned earlier I had gotten it started before, but it took lots of turnign over and recharging to get it to fire then.

Today, I got nothing. It didn't even attemtp to fire. So, off went the seat and tank again.

First things first. I checked the resistance of the coil and although I had no choice but to test it cold (the manual said to do it warm) both resistance measurements were spot on.

Next, I hooked my spark tester up to the spark plug lead, snapped it onto a head fin, and hit the starter. I got a spark (weak) for just an instant and then nothing. I checked continuity for the leads between the ignitor and the coil and both were good. Just for good measure I sprayed the contacts down with contact cleaner and cleaned up the coil temrinals and then reattached everything, hooked up the spark tester again, and got the same results--a spark, then nothing.

So, my conclusion so far is I have a bad ignitor, or perhaps still it is a bad coil with an intermittent failure/success. The book gives me no way to test the ignitor, so I may call Suzuki next time they are open and see what they would charge to bench test mine. There are slews on ebay, but I am a bit leary of buying one of these used just on the word of the seller that it is "good." Unfortunately, new is around $250. I might even be willing to pay that if I can be sure that is the problem. Of course, I could buy a (cheaper) new coil first and eliminate that as the culprit.

Any idea would be appreciated. Any alternative coil I could buy?

Cheers,

Mike, sparkless in Florida
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thumperclone
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #1 - 08/01/10 at 16:20:26
 
page 6-7 0f the ssm has the resistance chart for the ignitor unit..
can post values later if you need them
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #2 - 08/02/10 at 04:58:48
 
I don't have ssm (Suzuki Service Manual? I assume). I have the Clymers manual.
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jef.savage
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #3 - 08/02/10 at 06:24:07
 
When I lost spark I swapped out the coil and CDI and still got nothing. I had to replace the signal generator (part of the alternator).
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #4 - 08/02/10 at 06:32:58
 
jef.savage wrote on 08/02/10 at 06:24:07:
When I lost spark I swapped out the coil and CDI and still got nothing. I had to replace the signal generator (part of the alternator).


You know, I have been thinking about that. That seems to be the only other componenet that might be related to this symptom. Is there a way to check the signal generator (I think Clymer's wiring diagram calls it the "pickup coil.")?
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #5 - 08/02/10 at 06:50:32
 
I just looked at Clymer's and they call it a "pulse generator," a "signal generator," and a "pickup coil." I assume these are all the same thing? The part that sits beside the stator under the left cover?

Clymer's also states "The signal generator is part of the alternator stator coil assembly and cannot be replaced separately. . . . the stator asembly must be replaced . . . "

Did you replace just the signal generator or did you replace the entire stator assembly?

BTW, Clymer's does have a test and says the resistance should be between 200 and 240 ohms. I will go out an check that in a little bit.

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #6 - 08/02/10 at 07:10:35
 
LWRider wrote on 08/02/10 at 06:32:58:
jef.savage wrote on 08/02/10 at 06:24:07:
When I lost spark I swapped out the coil and CDI and still got nothing. I had to replace the signal generator (part of the alternator).


You know, I have been thinking about that. That seems to be the only other componenet that might be related to this symptom. Is there a way to check the signal generator (I think Clymer's wiring diagram calls it the "pickup coil.")?


ssm= suzuki service manual
PICK UP COIL  resistance
220 ohms plus or minus 20%  orange-green
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #7 - 08/02/10 at 07:22:20
 
Just checked the resistance and got 230 ohms, right where it should be. I also checked continuity from the plug to the ingnitor plug and it was good as well. The signal generator does not seem to be the problem, for better or worse.

Those values for checking the ingitor would be appreciated! Thanks.

At least, one by one things are getting narrowed down.

Cheers,

Mike
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #8 - 08/02/10 at 11:20:17
 
I'm not familiar with the spark tester you mentioned.  Does that rule out a bad plug?  Have you tried a new plug?
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #9 - 08/02/10 at 11:28:15
 
Yes, the tester I have plugs into the spark plug lead on one end and clips to the cylinder head (or anyground) on the other. There are two screws in a plastic body and you can open or close the gap between them. When you turn the bike over you can watch the spark jump the gap and it is easy to see against the black plastic body. You can open the gap and see how far the spark will jup as a guide to how strong it is. Very handy tool, available at any auto supply store. No need to hand on to that spark plug anymore. I did have a brand new and correctly gapped plug in the bike when I was turnign it over, btw.

When I tested mine I got a spark, but just for an instant, which jumped a very short gap. The spark was not bright blue, but rather weak looking with tinges of yellow. When turning the bike over, as long as you keep the starter button depressed you should see the spark, but mine lit once and was gone, the starter motor whirring on by itself producing nothing.

Do you have the testing numbers and procedure for the igniter unit? I sure would like to confirm it's bad (or affirm it is good) before turning over some serious $ (for me) for another.

Also, I see that later models have a different igniter, at least the connector looks different. How specific to the year of the motor are these? Can I use only one from a '86 or can I use one from a later eyar or range of years?

TIA

Mike
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #10 - 08/02/10 at 16:07:40
 
ignitor unit
5 terminals on top 1>5
4 terminals bottom 7>10  (blank where 6 would be)
1 orange  to pick up coil
2,3,4 no connection
5 blk/yel to ign coil primary winding
7 blk  to starter relay
8 grn to pick up coil
9 org/wh to ign switch
10 blk/wh GROUND

pos probe                      neg probe                     K OHMS
1                                   5                                  infinity
                                    7                                  300
                                    8                                  500
                                    9                                  200
                                    10                                200
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5                                   1                                   20
                                    7                                   30
                                    8                                   20
                                    9                                   4.5
                                    10                                 2.6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7                                   1                                    45
                                    5                                    infinity
                                    8                                    45
                                    9                                    18
                                    10                                  17
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
8                                   1                                    150
                                    5                                    infinity
                                    7                                    100
                                    9                                    75
                                    10                                  75
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9                                   1                                    11
                                    5                                    inf
                                    7                                    17
                                    8                                    11
                                    10                                   2.4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10                                 1                                     7
                                    5                                     inf
                                    7                                     20
                                    8                                     7
                                    9                                     2.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

QUOTE:
"CAUTION:
As capacitors, diodes, etc. are used inside this ignitor unit, the resistance values will differ when an ohmmeter other than SUZUKI pocket tester is used."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
imo  thats^ bull
--------------------

hope the chart helps good luck let us know....  T.C.
                                   
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #11 - 08/02/10 at 17:43:27
 
You da Man! Thanks a lot! I will go grab my tester and check it tonight!

Cheers,

Mike, who owes you a beer
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #12 - 08/02/10 at 17:54:55
 
LWRider wrote on 08/02/10 at 17:43:27:
You da Man! Thanks a lot! I will go grab my tester and check it tonight!

Cheers,

Mike, who owes you a beer


i like BEER!!!
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #13 - 08/02/10 at 19:00:57
 
I got nothing like that at all. And they were inconsistent to boot. Here are my results roughly (last column).



pos probe                      neg probe                     K OHMS
1                                   5                                  infinity 642
                                   7                                  300      373
                                   8                                  500      473
                                   9                                  200      101
                                   10                                200      45
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
5                                   1                                   20     Inf
                                   7                                   30     Inf
                                   8                                   20     Inf
                                   9                                   4.5     Inf
                                   10                                 2.6     Inf
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


7                                   1                                    45     Inf
                                   5                                    infinity 45
                                   8                                    45      92
                                   9                                    18      51
                                   10                                  17      26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
8                                   1                                    150     Inf
                                   5                                    infinity  85
                                   7                                    100      70
                                   9                                    75        95
                                   10                                  75        43
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9                                   1                                    11      Inf
                                   5                                    inf       55
                                   7                                    17       46
                                   8                                    11       110
                                   10                                   2.4      5.5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10                                 1                                     7        Inf
                                   5                                     inf       3.56
                                   7                                     20       16
                                   8                                     7         Inf
                                   9                                     2.4       4.35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Guess I will take the unti to Suzuki if they give me a fair price for testing it, just to be certain I have not screwed up somewhere in my measurements. I found a couple good candidates on ebay. Not the exact year, but they both are the same style.

Thanks, everything else I have to go on gets me closer to riding.

Cheers,

Mike
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Re: Coil or Ignitor?
Reply #14 - 08/03/10 at 14:48:32
 
Suzuki would not check the igniter. Apprently they themselves have no confidence in their testing procedure. lol Of course, they offered to look at the whole bike for $60.

I ordered a salvaged igniter on ebay from Pin Wall Cycles for just a bit more than they wanted to charge "to look at it."

I'll report back what happens with the new one.

Cheers,

Mike
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