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Running on Empty? (Read 280 times)
daedalus
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Running on Empty?
07/08/10 at 03:49:07
 
Hello. So this is my first real mechanical endeavor and I decided while I had things apart I might as well do it all at once.  Changed out rear tire.  Dropped the oil, changed the cam chain tensioner out to verslavy (20.5mm out at 15,000).  Drained the tank, changed out petcock to Raptor.  Thought I should go ahead and do head plug replacement (and valve adjustment) since I had the leak and the part.  So now I have 2 questions.
 1)  I can NOT get the valve timing inspection plug out (and I really dont have the $ and time to spend waiting on the ‘special tool’.)  The bike is jacked up so I can rotate the rear wheel.  Can I do the “put it in 5th and remove spark plug” method of finding TDC with the oil out?
 2)  When I drained the gas tank I also drained the carb to be sure I didnt have metal bits in it, etc.  With the raptor petcock now installed will I have trouble starting the bike with the carb empty? (No prime setting.)  
 Thanks for your time!
 -J.
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'95 Savage, mystery saddle, highway bars, bags, tkat, gaiters, (Big Crank, Raptor, verslavy)
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prechermike
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #1 - 07/08/10 at 04:21:18
 
Everybody here has a special tool to take the plug out.  Some folks use an old brake pad, others take a stiff putty knife and grind the corners off to make it fit, I think someone else used a metal cover for an electrical box.  I used a special two part tool:

Hinge and vise grips!

I would think you could do the in gear and tire thing, but there are ways to get the plug out.

You should not have trouble starting, when you put the petcock to "on" the fuel will flow, like prime did on the stock petcock.  Just give it a minute or two to get the gas to the carb.

I am sure someone else will come along with more or better advice.  

You certainly started big for your "first mechanical endeavor"  It feels god to do things yourself, doesn't it? Cheesy
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2006, HD pipe, Tkat fork brace, elkhide handgrips, gel seat w/riser, silverblue, Ed L's forward controls, Wristwatch, biblethumper650@gmail.com
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earlytimz
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #2 - 07/08/10 at 05:59:37
 
Good advice, Mike...

Also, if you choose to rotate the engine via the rear wheel, you aren't gonna hurt anything by not having oil in it. Don't start the engine without oil, but hand rotating won't hurt a thing.

Congrats for deciding to jump in and do all this yourself! It is very rewarding & saves a ton of $$$ in the process. Where are the pics?? LoL
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spacepirates
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #3 - 07/08/10 at 06:28:02
 
The very expensive, very special, hard to find tool i use is an old round-style bottle opener, the kind that "loops" over the bottlecap. I stick one end in the slot, stick a screwdriver through the loop and twist. works well for me. also convenient for enjoying a brew or two while working Grin

Now this is just what i think, and i'm not sure of it, but i *think* you have to have the timing plug cover off to line up the timing marks during the valve adjustment. finding TDC is only the first bit, the timing marks hit maybe a 1/4 turn or so after. But again, i'm not sure of that.

Again on something i *think*: the raptor is not vacuum driven, so setting it to on should allow fuel flow to fill up the carb bowl. this also means it is a good idea to shut it off when you shut the bike off. my raptor hasn't come in yet, so i can't promise that i'm telling you the truth.

How was the cam chain tensioner? that is next on my list for when the weather gets too nasty to ride. still kinda intimidated by it though...
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prechermike
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #4 - 07/08/10 at 06:43:59
 
Spacepirate has another cool version of the tool! Cheesy  We must be pretty smart around here.  TDC was a little tricky to find, but just a little, and having more marks to look at was a help.

He is also right about the raptor, I have had one for a while now.  It works on gravity and not vacuum.  Turn the fuel on and it flows down.  I usually don't turn my raptor off, it is kind of a split around here of those that do and don't.

The cam chain tensioner is not hard at all.  I did it in a day, not working too hard and certainly not going fast.  I bet  could do it in a few hours now, that I know what I am doing.
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2006, HD pipe, Tkat fork brace, elkhide handgrips, gel seat w/riser, silverblue, Ed L's forward controls, Wristwatch, biblethumper650@gmail.com
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earlytimz
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #5 - 07/08/10 at 06:53:59
 
You don't need the timing marks to gap the valves. The most important thing is to make sure they're completely shut with no pressure on the rockers from the cam. Other than that, it doesn't matter what position the crank is in.
You can rotate the engine, watch the valves open & close, then set your gap. Repeat for the other side.
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #6 - 07/08/10 at 08:03:51
 
Thats what I would think too Early,Years ago you set them on cars with the motor running.
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #7 - 07/08/10 at 19:34:41
 
bill67 wrote on 07/08/10 at 08:03:51:
Thats what I would think too Early,Years ago you set them on cars with the motor running.

I heard about that too, but I just cannot picture how this works. I didn't say it doesn't work, just can't imagine it. What about the oil spewing with the valve covers off. And if the tappets or rockers or whatever going up and down, when do you now it's right? And what about doing this when the engine is cold? With it running it'll get constantly hotter, and then it's getting looser. You readjust to compensate, and then the next time the engine is cold, the gaps are too tight. It just doesn't seem to make any sense. I did it on my S40 and I just kept trying with the gauge and after countless tries I thought it's good enough. I was never positive about it being too tight or too loose.
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #8 - 07/08/10 at 19:38:57
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/08/10 at 19:34:41:
bill67 wrote on 07/08/10 at 08:03:51:
Thats what I would think too Early,Years ago you set them on cars with the motor running.

I heard about that too, but I just cannot picture how this works. I didn't say it doesn't work, just can't imagine it. What about the oil spewing with the valve covers off. And if the tappets or rockers or whatever going up and down, when do you now it's right? And what about doing this when the engine is cold? With it running it'll get constantly hotter, and then it's getting looser. You readjust to compensate, and then the next time the engine is cold, the gaps are too tight. It just doesn't seem to make any sense.

I did the valve adjustment on my S40 when cold in the morning and I just kept trying with the gauge and after countless tries I thought it's good enough. I was never positive about it being too tight or too loose.

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Digger
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #9 - 07/08/10 at 21:34:42
 
daedalus wrote on 07/08/10 at 03:49:07:
....
 1)  I can NOT get the valve timing inspection plug out (and I really dont have the $ and time to spend waiting on the ‘special tool’.)....


If it were me, I'd try to get that plug out.

Here's what I've used in the past:





It is a 2 1/2" OD flat washer.  I ground one edge thin enough to fit into the plug.  I clamped it into the jaws of a Vice-Grip to use it.  It worked great!

Good luck!
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Digger
2001, Metallic Glacial Blue, Raptor Petcock, Verslavy (first hole) (otherwise, mechanically, the bike is stock), 13,xxx miles
I don't own a cage.
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verslagen1
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #10 - 07/08/10 at 22:27:30
 
I have a few of these around...

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Serowbot
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #11 - 07/08/10 at 23:47:35
 
...stock Savage footpegs look like over-played accordions... Huh...

Versy's tool, is an old brake pad, by the way... Wink...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Tom K
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #12 - 07/09/10 at 05:04:32
 
Must be a Colorado thing.  Same tool as mine!  Wink

Digger wrote on 07/08/10 at 21:34:42:
Here's what I've used in the past:


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee201/Digger109/LS650/ValveTimingInspectio...


It is a 2 1/2" OD flat washer.  I ground one edge thin enough to fit into the plug.  I clamped it into the jaws of a Vice-Grip to use it.  It worked great!

Good luck!

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bill67
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #13 - 07/09/10 at 05:38:20
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/08/10 at 19:38:57:
ralfyguy wrote on 07/08/10 at 19:34:41:
bill67 wrote on 07/08/10 at 08:03:51:
Thats what I would think too Early,Years ago you set them on cars with the motor running.

I heard about that too, but I just cannot picture how this works. I didn't say it doesn't work, just can't imagine it. What about the oil spewing with the valve covers off. And if the tappets or rockers or whatever going up and down, when do you now it's right? And what about doing this when the engine is cold? With it running it'll get constantly hotter, and then it's getting looser. You readjust to compensate, and then the next time the engine is cold, the gaps are too tight. It just doesn't seem to make any sense.

I did the valve adjustment on my S40 when cold in the morning and I just kept trying with the gauge and after countless tries I thought it's good enough. I was never positive about it being too tight or too loose.


You saw the oil running but it didn't plash up and out.
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william h krumpen
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Re: Running on Empty?
Reply #14 - 07/09/10 at 05:49:18
 
I did the valve adjustment on a 1952 Chevy six, many moons ago. The valves were to be adjusted with the engine hot, and running. Get the engine hot (normal operating temp per the gauge). Remove the valve cover and start the engine. The oil didn't splash out, but there was a mist or spatter. Slide the feeler into the gap between the valve and the rocker. This was made easier by pressing the rocker against the lifter with a finger to take up the clearance on the side away from the valve and adjuster. You turned the adjuster until the feeler gauge slid with just a little drag when the valve was closed. It wouldn't move while the valve was open, because of the pressure of the spring. The only difficult part was keeping the screwdriver in the slot on the adjuster while the adjuster was moving. In some ways it was easier, because you just moved from valve to valve and got the job done, instead of adjusting, moving the engine, and repeating.

Then somebody invented hydraulic valve lifters.
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Eschew obfuscation.

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