SuzukiSavage.com - 1986 starting problems

stoner

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1986 starting problems
06/09/10 at 17:16:04

Hi Guys here is the problem hope someone can provide a few suggestions. My wife has a 1986 Savage that is always has had issuses. It was bought used and every now and than would have problems starting. Everyso often I would have to take the plug out and clean it up (it would be black) and put it back in to get it to fire up. This year it has gotten worse. Last week it wouldn't start up at all. I took off the head and right side cover and as I have an extra motor (the case is broken) I swapped out the cam chains (the one on my wives bike was stretched and the one on the broken motor was not as bad) and did an oil change. I Took off the Carb and cleaned it as well. I put her all back together (ensureing the decompression selonid was adjusted properly as it has prevented it from starting in the past) and it fired right up. Drove it for a day or so and started it up a few times the next few days as it was raining. When I tried to start it up recently, it would not catch. Checked and it is getting spark (took it out and cleaned it) and fuel (plug is wet when pulled). It will not even attempt to catch when turned over. I did a compression check and I am getting around 150 PSI; I added a spoonful of oil to the cylinder head and it went up to around 180 or so. As I said the bike was used and the is also used engine (not original engine) so I am not sure of its milage. What is the min compression you need for this bike, is 150 OK or should it be higher. Will low compression give you my symptons (ie black plug, hard to start). I am in the process of getting the Broken motor weled soon (maybee sooner than later) but would rather try to get this one up and running than do an engine swap.

While I am on the topic of the broken engine, I need the Starter Clucth as it was chewed up pretty bad when it kicked back and broke the case, anyone have one they are willing to part with. I am in Canada, Newfoundland (postal code A0A 3W0) to be exact so shipping may be an issue.

Please let me know

eagerly looking forward to suggestions.

Thanks

Stoner

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: 1986 starting problems Reply #1 - 06/09/10 at 17:58:42 black carbon fouled sparky is your clue what jets? filter clean? what's you idle mixture screw turned out to? also a tight decomp will make it hard to start too. a loose one will make the starter stall. keep it adjusted in between.
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stoner

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #2 - 06/11/10 at 09:35:37

Carb is stock, filter is clean (new last year) and the Decompression is adjusted as per the spec in the manual. How long should it say engaged for (exhust valve open), mine only pulls up on the cable for a second or 2 than it drops back down again (slack) Still won't start when turned over. I am at sea level so the stock Carb should be OK. Idle mix screw is set to 2.5 turns out. Is the compression OK or is 150 considered low.

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ratz

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #3 - 06/11/10 at 11:53:46

The decomp solenoid only engages long enough to get past 1 compression stroke(it's fired by a timer) so that's normal.
On the compression reading-from the service manual:
(engine warmed up)
standard 142-200 psi
limit 114 psi
so that sounds OK.
Between having to clean black fouling off the plug and having a wet plug when you pull it,it does sound like you've got a very rich mixture.Could be as simple as your float level or a sticking or leaky needle valve.
Also might want to pull the vacuum line off the carb and see if it has gas leaking into it,that will do it even if your carb is perfect.

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james may

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #4 - 06/11/10 at 12:01:17

yeah black plug seems like fuel fowling.. so there is probly something wrong with your carb causing it to let too much fuel in.. I think one guy on here was having problems with his floats that caused flooding. since spark and compression seem good.. fuel is probably your problem I'd look into the carb somemore.. either something isn't seating right or the floats aren't working properly..

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drums1

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #5 - 06/11/10 at 15:04:44

And even then it may run like poop. Hope not. I'm that other guy with the float problem. Haven't figured mine out yet, but yours does sound like running rich. 2.5 turns on mixture screw is top end-wouldn't have it much further out without rejetting. Mine was at 1 3/4 and running great, until my fuel problems kicked in. I have replaced the diaphram in the petcock, the vacuum line to it, the fuel line, the breather hose from head to airbox, the spark plug, the needle, the o-ring on the needle seat, cleaned the carb, adjusted the valves, and it still runs like poop every time I stop or idle. Better luck figuring yours out.

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28644 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: 1986 starting problems Reply #6 - 06/11/10 at 17:06:13 Please check this,... it is at the root of most bizarre Savage behavior... and it's easy to test... Test your Petcock... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1251932429
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verslagen1

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #7 - 06/11/10 at 23:48:23

There's an anti kickback mod that activates the decomp at shut off.
Or you could kill the revs by letting out the clutch at shut off.
otherwise you are in danger of breaking out the starter from the engine.

I think you should lean out your idle at least. but the main may need it as well. go thru lancer's carb tune. people are in the habit of throwing in a big jet cause the joneses say it's great.

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LS-Rich

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #8 - 06/12/10 at 01:53:06

Sounds to me that you could possibly be a cog off on the cam chain. Just somethig to check to make sure before you go and start chasing a lot of stuff you shouldn't. That's something that should be lined up then turned counter clockwise from the left side of the engine a round or two and checked again. It's easy to get off a cog. Not sure but I'm thinking that it could still run with it being a cog off. Most of the time it's the back to basics that will solve some of the hardest promblems.

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stoner

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #9 - 06/14/10 at 06:37:42

Thanks for the tips so far, but still not running. Here is what I did this weekend: Took off the right case side and adjusted the timing. the 2 notches on the camshaft I can't get straight across, the forward mark (closest to the exhust) was just above the top of the engine header, I took off the cam chain and adjusted it one notch and now it is slightly below the top of the engine, will this throw it off. I have pics and will see if I can add them. Also last year I did the mod to the cam chain extended, but it has run many times since I added that on. Will an overstretched camchain throw off the timing so bad that it won't start? I Put it back together and it still wouldn't. Next Took off the carb and while cranking it over sprayed gas into the intake with a small spray bottle, still nothing. Took out the plug and dipped it in gas, put it back in and still nothing. Spark looks good when I hold the plug to the top of the engine. Adjusted the valves. Next I checked the values; I adjusted them to the 0.08MM they are now vert tight, Still nothing. will over tight valves make it not start (is it better to be tight or loose). I noticed when I turned the engine over by hand to find TDC i still had the plug in and when I would approcah TDC i could hear air escaping from the head not sure where put I did feel compression and as I said before I am getting around 150, is this enough? hoping to have the spare engine welded this week and will do an engine swap to see if that helps. Anyone pull off the starter clutch and has suggestions on how to do it. Do you need the special Suzuki tool or can you make up something, don't want to crack the plate while taking it off.

Thanks to all

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stoner

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #10 - 06/22/10 at 09:26:55

Guys I am about to double check my timing as I have had the camchain off and want to make sure I am doing it right. First thing I do is make sure I am TDC on compression (several ways to ensure that: play in rocker arms, piston all way to top, how much decompression lever lifts up etc) and line up the notch (more like a small scratch line)on the "big nut" (not sure what it is called) I see in the left side access hole with the notch in the side of the case. Next I take off the headcover and the right side cover. On the end of the camshaft I see 2 notches (again looks like scratch lines), these should be level or even on both sides with the top of the engine head (basicelly 3 and 9 oclock) also If I look at the camshaft the lobes are pointing down. (As well the aligning hole in the upper camchain sprocket is inserted in the pin on the camshaft itself and I can see the words "24B" to the top left as I look at the sprocket). If the scratch marks are not at 3 and 9 oclock, I just lossen up the chain, move it on the sprocket one or two teeth either front or backward until the marks are at 3 and 9. Is this how it is done, am I missing anything. Sorry for the length response but want to make sure. Thanks all

Stoner

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LS-Rich

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #11 - 06/22/10 at 10:11:34

Yea. That all sounds right to me. Make sure when you allign everything you take into consideration that there is a slack side of the chain. The slack side is the side that's to the back side of the bike. Keep in mind that when the engine is running it's the front side that is what is tight and actully pulling the cam around and the back side has the tensioner that takes up the slack. So with that said when you allign the marks twist the cam so that the chain on the front side is tight. Hope that makes sense.

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1987 Long Savage, 2006 crf450r

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stoner

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Re: 1986 starting problems
Reply #12 - 08/20/10 at 05:02:46

Was out of town for a fair bit and just returned. Took off the carb and gave it a good cleaning for the third time, put it back on and she now fires up. Go figure, I though my other 2 attempts at cleaning the carb were good, but I must have missed something. She runs OK now, but when I shut her down, get the large bang on shut down (I don't get one when shifting). It is somthing I can live with, but the wife wants fixed. Will read up on it in the tech section and play with the jetting and the spacer. Just wanted to say thank you to all the guys who responded with advice. Sites like this make this bike very enjoyable to ride and more so to work on. Have an 86 I plan on chopping in the winter months so I will be back for more advice.

Thanks again to all who helped

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: 1986 starting problems Reply #13 - 08/20/10 at 07:57:40 an 1/8 turn richer on the idle mixture screw and the pow should be down to a poof.
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