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Mandated ABS on bikes? (Read 315 times)
Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Mandated ABS on bikes?
05/12/10 at 11:55:02
 
Insurance group trying to get anti-lock brake system to be mandatory on all motorcycles.

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/story.asp?id=1958
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Charon
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #1 - 05/12/10 at 14:15:51
 
I am afraid I'll be even more unpopular, but I agree with mandatory ABS for motorcycles. Not only that, but I would require that the brakes be so linked that the rear brake pedal would fully apply both brakes. The front brake can be either linked or independent, but the foot pedal must apply both brakes. Reason: Most people spend far more time behind the wheel than on a bike. In a car or truck, there is only one brake pedal, which applies all the brakes on all the wheels (Yes, I know about the parking brake and/or the trailer brake bar on a semi). In a situation requiring sudden application of brakes, the trained reaction is to stomp the pedal. On a motorcycle, that often causes a spill when the rear wheel locks. Stopping distance using the rear brake only is far longer than using both brakes properly, and in a panic stop it is exceedingly easy for an occasional rider to forget completely about the front brake. Evidence for that scenario goes at least as far back as the Hurt report. We have the technology already. It should be mandatory. And yes, I have read the reports that under some conditions stopping distances using ABS might be longer. But what is the stopping distance for a motorcycle on its side because the operator made a braking mistake?

By the way, we are all aware that very soon electronic stability controls will be mandatory on all new cars. That includes ABS and traction controls. Be ready for an influx of new drivers who can be even more aggressive knowing they won't spin out.
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bill67
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #2 - 05/12/10 at 14:28:31
 
  On some bikes the front does work when you hit the rear brake,I think Goldwings and some Moto Guzzis
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #3 - 05/12/10 at 15:07:01
 
You are correct, Bill. Some Gold Wings were set up so the pedal operated the rear disc and one of the two front discs, with the front brake operating the other front disc. Some Guzzis also had linked brakes. A fairly recent BMW had linked, power assisted, ABS brakes so either control operated both brakes. Some Honda sportbikes had a linked brake system with bias, so set up that the pedal biased the brake toward the rear and the hand control biased the brake toward the front, but both controls always operated both brakes. That Honda system didn't have ABS, though. The combination of linked brakes and ABS is still unusual and expensive.

I think the ABS and linked brake system should be mandatory on all motorcycles, because I think a lot of motorcycle crashes are caused by locking one or both wheels in braking. Even without a panic stop a motorcycle goes down really easily if the front wheel skids on a slippery spot (oil, patch of gravel, or the like) and the rider doesn't let up VERY quickly. A single-track vehicle is inherently unstable, and easily falls down. A mistake in braking in a car may result in a skid and loss of control, but the car doesn't fall down.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #4 - 05/12/10 at 15:21:14
 
besides increasing the costs of all bikes by $1000 I'm okay with the idea of ABS, not sure about the interlocking brakes, how does locking the back wheel cause crashes?   I always thought locking the front wheel would be 1000 times worse?
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Charon
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #5 - 05/12/10 at 16:49:44
 
Locking the front wheel causes the bike to drop pretty quickly. Locking the rear usually causes the rear to slide out to one side or the other, often to the right since the road is crowned that way. If you are already in a turn when the rear locks, it will slide to the outside of the turn. Once the bike is out-of-line, there are three possibilities. One, the rider might be able to recover. Two, the slide continues and the bike drops to the pavement. This is a low-side crash. Three, the rear wheel regains traction, either because the rider releases the brake or because it hits something like the curb. When it does the bike will violently flip over the other way, tossing the rider into the air. This is a high-side crash.

Motorcycle brakes can be treacherous. Consider a rider who usually uses the rear brake, and "saves the front brake for emergencies." This rider steps on the rear brake, just to the verge of lockup. He realizes this isn't going to do the job. Now he applies the front brake. The front brake application causes a nose dive, but more importantly it unloads the rear wheel because of weight transfer. This rear wheel unloading instantly causes the rear wheel to lock, and takes the rider by surprise. Remember, he is already trying to stop, and he is unlikely to associate rear wheel lockup with front brake application. Odd as it might seem, cruisers are a little less vulnerable to the problem because of their long wheelbase.

Some of these things are easy to demonstrate to yourself. Having properly dressed for the chance of a fall, go find a dirt road somewhere. Dirt, because the forces required are lower (tires slide much more easily on dirt than pavement). You are deliberately going to play with locking brakes, and sliding on dirt doesn't damage tires as does sliding on pavement. And, should you go down, neither you nor the bike will suffer as much (probably). Accelerate to modest speed, say 20 - 25 mph. Squeeze the clutch, to eliminate engine interactions. For the sake of discussion, we will start with the front brake. Start squeezing it. Get a "feel" for how much braking you can do, preferably using only one or two fingers on the lever. You will have to accelerate between the experiments. Eventually, you will exceed traction limits and the front wheel will lock. When it does, it will immediately turn one way or the other because of the bike's geometry. RELEASE THE BRAKE IMMEDIATELY, or you will go down. You are learning what a front end lockup feels like, and you won't like it much. Now to the rear. Repeat the experiments, gradually increasing brake pressure until the wheel locks. Because you are going straight, the rear wheel lockup won't seem very dramatic, and you will probably be able to keep the bike fairly straight. If by chance it does get very far out of line, keep it locked until you stop. Again, get a feel for how much braking you can apply. Now, the fun experiment. Get going and apply about as much rear brake as you can without locking the wheel. Then apply the front brake and observe that the rear locks up.

Sorry for the length of the post, but this is something that I do not believe is covered in most motorcycle training courses.  By the way, it wouldn't hurt to take a friend along, just in case something goes wrong.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #6 - 05/12/10 at 16:50:27
 
On the downside have you got $1000 to buy a new ABS module when yours goes out and it will go out. Just happened to a friend of mines BMW. Most motorcycles stop quicker than cars plus we have more manueverability and can look for smaller exit paths. The vast majority of motorcycle accidents are cars hitting us and pulling out in front of us. Your chances of surviving a car pulling out in front of you are better if you look for an escape route rather than slamming on the brakes. I'm not against safety equipment, I dress appropriately and wear a full face helmet. But a vast majority of the time using your head and appropriate reactions are better than all the safety equipment money can by. I'll take an MSF course over antilock brakes any day. I'm 55 years old and I've ridden over 200,000 mi on the street.
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bill67
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #7 - 05/12/10 at 16:59:02
 
From the time I started riding I have always used both brakes together,Always the back brake a mil a second before front brake,In parking lots at very slow speeds I use just the front. I have never locked either brake.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #8 - 05/12/10 at 17:10:25
 
ABS would of helped when I got into some gravel with the front tire coming up to a stop sign. Did more damage to myself than the bike and bruised my ego even more. I guess it is part of the "protecting the masses from themselves". Maybe I'm getting old but I'm really getting tired of people protecting me from myself. I like to think I'm intelligent enough to be aware of the ramifications of my actions and accept the risks involved. Has anyone bought a pocket knife lately? there is a disclaimer stating that a knife is "Sharp and can cause injury" handout in it's box. Well Duhh.
 I could see a problem with riders moving from ABS bikes to non ABS bikes just cause they never learned to use braking properly when they first started riding. ABS on a bike I own? gotta think twice about that one.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #9 - 05/12/10 at 19:50:47
 
Ed, I have to agree with you in your comments about people (read Government) wanting to protect me from myself. The business of protecting me from myself led to seat belt laws and helmet laws. There is, however, a bit of overlap in being protected from myself and being protected from others. If some technology can be added to motor vehicles which reduces the liklihood of crashes, it protects not only the vehicle operator but also passengers and other road users. I am not completely convinced that seat belts or helmets protect anyone but their immediate users, and so I think their use should probably devolve onto the user. (I won't raise the question of whether one should be required to seat belt ones children.) But a technology such as ABS, regardless of the vehicle type, shows good potential for reducing the number of crashes which might affect others. A motorcyclist who runs into a car will almost certainly hurt or kill himself. There is a definite chance the auto driver can be injured, and it is virtually certain the car will sustain damage. If technology such as ABS and linked brakes can avert the crash, more than one person has been helped. There are a lot of motorcyclists who have had no formal training. I think those are the ones who would be helped most.

As a matter of interest, I note that the new Can-Am Spyder, Bombardier's trike, is factory equipped with electronic stability control and ABS, and has only a foot-operated brake working on all three wheels.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #10 - 05/13/10 at 06:48:30
 
There are a lot of motorcyclists who have had no formal training. I think those are the ones who would be helped most.

Maybe the solution is for those with no formal training is to get some. To advocate a rider go out to a dirt road and crash their bike is insane! Bring a friend?  Call the EMT's!  Cool
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #11 - 05/13/10 at 08:11:46
 
Buckaroo, you are correct in thinking that those motorcyclists without formal training should go get that training. But not many seem likely to do it. I tried once to get some other riders at my place of employment to sign up for an advanced rider course. The most common reaction: "I don't need no training. I know how to ride a f**ing motorcycle." There were not enough people signed up, and the course was cancelled.

I have taken the MSF, and also attended Kieth Code's Superbike school. Neither of those courses mentioned the effect I described earlier, that of having the rear brake lock up when the front brake is applied. I do not know of any other way to experience the effect of wheel lockup under braking than to go try it. I do not know of any safer way than on dirt at low speeds, wearing suitable gear. Had I known a better way, I'd have described it. If you know a better way, pray tell us. Best, of course, would be to get hold a a bike with outriggers, wich cannot fall over. Few of us have access to such a rig.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #12 - 05/13/10 at 08:14:16
 
  I've had no formal training,After 40 years of riding I should just quit riding,I really should quit driving a car to I had no Roll Eyes (formal) Roll Eyes drivers ed.
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #13 - 05/13/10 at 08:59:12
 
My problem with abs is that I usually only ride, not drive (don't even have a cage I call my own anymore), so for me to learn how to use abs on a MC would be a relearning process.

Also - For regular stops, I use almost all front brake. For emergency stops (which I intentionally practice, and way too often get to use - mostly due to cell phone users) I use both brakes to the max. For parking lots I use only the rear brake. My motorcycle weighs 900+ lbs loaded and being a sport tourer tends to "dive" if you apply the front brake at low speeds especially while turning - can you say high side with a 600+ MC chasing you - I'd rather not.

Is an ABS system going to be smart enough to do all that? I can appreciate the thought, however not all braking is emergency braking, but if you do regular braking wrong, you can turn parking into an emergency.  Angry
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Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Re: Mandated ABS on bikes?
Reply #14 - 05/13/10 at 09:06:35
 
Since I started this thread, I reckon I better chime in huh?

I am actually on the fence with this issue. On one hand ABS would work well with the bigger bikes like the Gold Wings and such, because of their to me excessive weight, but I do not believe ABS would be beneficial for the lighter bikes like the Savage/S40.
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