SuzukiSavage.com - starter and battery work... but not in MY bike.

Bobbert

Serious Thumper

Offline

CHOP IT

Posts: 836
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: male

starter and battery work... but not in MY bike.
02/06/10 at 21:22:46

Here's the situation:

Status of my bike:
I tore down my engine and rebuilt it over last summer and I've redone the electrics, chopper style. There is no decomp relay. I'm going to operate the release with a lever and the starter solenoid is now activated by a switch, not by the decomp relay.

Status of my starter/battery:
I brought my battery and starter over to Verslagen's to test them out on his running bike. His bike will start and run with both my battery and starter.

My bike wont crank with my starter/battery
All of this is done with the spark plug out and the pulser plug disconnected.

To start my bike, I touch the two leads for the starter button together. (I haven't gotten the starter button ready yet- this could be my problem)

The relay clicks loudly and the starter... wheezes. The engine whiffs once or twice per second. I'm measuring a little over 4 volts from the starter post to the negative battery terminal. After a good 5 second crank the shrinkwrap around the terminal loop for the cable running from the battery to the relay started smoldering.

I also experienced the slow starter when jumping the starter directly from the battery. I believe I grounded to the frame.

Possible Problems/Solutions (help me out with this)

- When I touch the starter button wires, there may not be solid electrical connection between them and not fully closing the relay. (unlikely, the relay is clicking loudly and the starter behaves the same when jumping from the battery)
-The decomp relay boosted the voltage/current that goes to the starter relay. The voltage to the relay straight from the battery isn't enough. (also unlikely, the starter relay seems to be working fine and the decomp relay very doubtfully contains a transformer)
-The internal components of the relay are shot (unlikely again)
-The starter is not grounding properly.
-The starter is fighting too much resistance in the engine

Back to top

« Last Edit: 02/07/10 at 11:12:42 by Bobbert »

In progress- 1996 Savage: solo seat, pod filter, open exhaust, and custom bars, fender, wiring, paint.

IP Logged

verslagen1

YaBB Moderator
ModSquad

Offline

Where there's a
will, I want to be
in it.

Posts: 28884
L.A. California
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #1 - 02/06/10 at 22:55:58

Don't rule out the starter yet, what's the resistance of the starter from the post to ground?
Check the relay without the starter, how much current is running through the activation side? Any current running through the starter side with it disconnected?
4 volts could indicate that you got a bad relay or cable. Resistance and amperage causes heat. you got heat where it shouldn't be. This may be your problem, bad cable or too small.
I saw 300 rpm on my tack when starting.

Back to top

Versey's Place
Tech Section Index

IP Logged

Routy

Serious Thumper

Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2280
Winston Oregon
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #2 - 02/07/10 at 04:38:51

A little confusing,......

You said the bike won't start,.....but I guess you really mean the bike won't crank, because it surely won't start w/o a spark plug installed Grin

After reading all your tests and check list, to me the problem is the very last one on your list, because you never did say the engine turns freely,.....or should I say "normally" by hand.
Assuming the engine is all assembled correctly, I would then have to ask what you used for assembly lube, as there are some lubes that make an engine very hard to crank......untill it starts, and the oil pressure builds up. Even using STP for assembly lube can cause an engine to crank very slowly.

Good luck !

Back to top

Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)

IP Logged

Bobbert

Serious Thumper

Offline

CHOP IT

Posts: 836
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #3 - 02/07/10 at 11:22:32

verslagen1 wrote on 02/06/10 at 22:55:58:

Don't rule out the starter yet, what's the resistance of the starter from the post to ground?
Check the relay without the starter, how much current is running through the activation side? Any current running through the starter side with it disconnected?
4 volts could indicate that you got a bad relay or cable. Resistance and amperage causes heat. you got heat where it shouldn't be. This may be your problem, bad cable or too small.
I saw 300 rpm on my tack when starting.

You may have nailed it. I went with 10 gauge for the ground, battery, and starter cables because no matter where I went I could not find 8 gauge. They had 6 and 10 but of course not 8.

(Why is it that no tools or supplies for the Savage are easily purchased at a store?)

I'll check my resistances once I give the battery another charge. She's only reading about 12.25 volts at the moment.

Back to top

In progress- 1996 Savage: solo seat, pod filter, open exhaust, and custom bars, fender, wiring, paint.

IP Logged

Bobbert

Serious Thumper

Offline

CHOP IT

Posts: 836
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #4 - 02/07/10 at 11:25:34

Routy wrote on 02/07/10 at 04:38:51:

A little confusing,......

You said the bike won't start,.....but I guess you really mean the bike won't crank, because it surely won't start w/o a spark plug installed Grin

After reading all your tests and check list, to me the problem is the very last one on your list, because you never did say the engine turns freely,.....or should I say "normally" by hand.
Assuming the engine is all assembled correctly, I would then have to ask what you used for assembly lube, as there are some lubes that make an engine very hard to crank......untill it starts, and the oil pressure builds up. Even using STP for assembly lube can cause an engine to crank very slowly.

Good luck !

Good call on the use of the word "start." Edit made.

The only lubrication I did was a few dabs of oil on the gears and a drop or two into the cylinder to grease the rings. I've filled it up with oil but obviously most of it's sitting in the bottom since the bike hasn't run since June.

Is there a good way to grease up my engine without having to pull the head and side covers? I really don't want to have to pull the engine and replace the gaskets AGAIN.

Back to top

In progress- 1996 Savage: solo seat, pod filter, open exhaust, and custom bars, fender, wiring, paint.

IP Logged

verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #5 - 02/07/10 at 12:17:31 Auto store should have universal battery cables in varying gauges.
Back to top	Versey's Place Tech Section Index IP Logged

Bobbert Serious Thumper Offline CHOP IT Posts: 836 Los Angeles, CA Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #6 - 02/07/10 at 12:43:49 I've been to Pep Boys, Autozone, Home Depot, and an auto parts whole sale. All carry everything EXCEPT 8 guage.
Back to top	In progress- 1996 Savage: solo seat, pod filter, open exhaust, and custom bars, fender, wiring, paint. IP Logged

Charon Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 1811 Harvard, NE Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #7 - 02/07/10 at 13:03:57 When in doubt buy the bigger gauge, not the smaller one. Remember, the single cylinder in the S40 is the same size as one cylinder in a 318 V8, and takes just as much moxie to turn it through.
Back to top	Eschew obfuscation. IP Logged

Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #8 - 02/07/10 at 13:16:23 So with the spark plug out and bike in gear does it roll around turning the engine over fairly easy?
Back to top	IP Logged

Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #9 - 02/07/10 at 13:19:12 hummm - from looking over your pictures I'd say you do not have enough of the bike back together to roll it around!
Back to top	IP Logged

Bobbert

Serious Thumper

Offline

CHOP IT

Posts: 836
Los Angeles, CA
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #10 - 02/07/10 at 13:56:12

Here's a clue but I dont know what to make of it:

The starter barely turns on the first try. Subsequent attempts make the relay click but the starter doesn't turn.

I've got the battery at 12.98 volts. When I activate the relay I don't think the starter itself is moving more than .5 rpm.

Resistance (Ohms)
- .1 from the positive terminal to the corresponding post
- .1 from the engine to the the negative battery post
- .1 from starter post to negative terminal

Back to top

In progress- 1996 Savage: solo seat, pod filter, open exhaust, and custom bars, fender, wiring, paint.

IP Logged

verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #11 - 02/07/10 at 14:33:43 Did you have the stator cover off? There's a washer in there, not well documented where it goes. And usually jumps out when the cover is taken off. But put it back in the wrong location and you got what you got. I know you had the starter off.
Back to top	Versey's Place Tech Section Index IP Logged

BurnPgh

Serious Thumper

Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1732

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #12 - 02/07/10 at 15:48:45

Bobbert wrote on 02/07/10 at 11:25:34:

Routy wrote on 02/07/10 at 04:38:51:

A little confusing,......

You said the bike won't start,.....but I guess you really mean the bike won't crank, because it surely won't start w/o a spark plug installed Grin

After reading all your tests and check list, to me the problem is the very last one on your list, because you never did say the engine turns freely,.....or should I say "normally" by hand.
Assuming the engine is all assembled correctly, I would then have to ask what you used for assembly lube, as there are some lubes that make an engine very hard to crank......untill it starts, and the oil pressure builds up. Even using STP for assembly lube can cause an engine to crank very slowly.

Good luck !

Good call on the use of the word "start." Edit made.

The only lubrication I did was a few dabs of oil on the gears and a drop or two into the cylinder to grease the rings. I've filled it up with oil but obviously most of it's sitting in the bottom since the bike hasn't run since June.

Is there a good way to grease up my engine without having to pull the head and side covers? I really don't want to have to pull the engine and replace the gaskets AGAIN.

Not much lube action going on there. I greased every freaking thing with lucas oil when i tore mine down. I hope you filled the oil resevoir under the cam or that first 30 seconds of start is going to be mighty grindy. Take the valve covers off and pour some oil in there will help, but i dont think you can get to the cam that way.

Back to top

IP Logged

Charon

Serious Thumper

Offline

Posts: 1811
Harvard, NE
Gender: male

Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike
Reply #13 - 02/07/10 at 17:09:43

You can probably fill the "bathtub" under the cam with a piece of tube through one of the valve adjustment covers. Someone on here suggested filling the engine through the rear valve adjustment cover instead of through the oil filler plug for a rebuilt engine, and pouring as quickly as you can. The idea was to flood the head and cam journals.

My next step would be to remove the inspection cover on the left side of the engine, stick a wrench in there, and turn the engine by hand to make sure it turns freely. With the plug removed it shouldn't require a lot of effort. I'd prefer to put the transmission in high gear and turn the engine with the rear wheel, but it looks like your belt may not yet be installed. If the engine turns freely you have some sort of starter or electrical problem. If it doesn't, the starter hasn't a chance.

Back to top

Eschew obfuscation.

IP Logged

Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: starter and battery work... but not in MY bike Reply #14 - 02/07/10 at 17:17:19 here's the a bit on the washers: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1229466748/13#13 but seems to me it locks sold when you get those in the wrong place
Back to top	IP Logged