SuzukiSavage.com - Smoking Issue

Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12671 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #15 - 12/07/09 at 04:57:57 Seafoam/Stabil treated gas causes smoking, especially if mixed a little thick.
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serenity3743

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #16 - 12/07/09 at 07:37:44

LANCER wrote on 12/06/09 at 18:07:34:

I have had a nagging thought ....... could I have installed the piston without the rings ? I know I remember installing them and spacing the ring gaps around the piston; but did I remove them later and forget to reinstall when rechecking the cylinder ? I am second guessing myself now; crazy eh ?

Wouldn't there also be some extra knocking if the rings were absent?

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28637 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #17 - 12/07/09 at 07:54:31 don't think it would run at all without rings... no vacuum, no gas...
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RidgeRunner13 Serious Thumper Offline haulin' the groceries! Posts: 649 Mustang Island, Texas Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #18 - 12/07/09 at 07:59:29 Won't run without compression rings, will run without oil ring set. Just like a 2-stroke.
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LANCER Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Savage Beast Performance Parts Posts: 10661 Oklahoma Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #19 - 12/07/09 at 08:29:37 Routy wrote on 12/07/09 at 04:53:32: Smokin like a 2 stroke ??.......... Did you have your weedeater gas can marked well ? Fresh gas used
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Routy

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #20 - 12/07/09 at 09:34:12

Quote:
Wouldn't there also be some extra knocking if the rings were absent?
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"If" it would run, I don't think there would be any knocking, because in theory, the piston is not supposed to touch the cylinder wall, as the bottom 2/3 of it is supposed to be riding on a film of oil, and the top 1/3 is several thousanths smaller than the bottom, so it is never suppose to touch the cyl wall anyway. The only thing that normally wears the cyl wall is the rings.

Did we really care ? Roll Eyes

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #21 - 12/07/09 at 09:38:33 Compression & detonation might well spit that film of oil down into the crank case if theres no rings..
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Charon

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #22 - 12/07/09 at 09:40:12

I have never tried it, but by some accounts some racing engines are operated without rings. Omitting the rings reduces friction. Compression may be lower, but the film of oil will still provide a pretty good seal. The gap between the piston and cylinder is only a couple of thousandths, and at operating speed there isn't enough time to let the compression leak out completely. Oil consumption will be high. I imagine the spark plug might foul pretty quickly, too.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #23 - 12/07/09 at 09:49:37 If it's not the valves and not the rings... only other place is the head gasket. Now I just R&R'd a head cover and I wondered what in heck is that figure 8 o-ring is for? It bleeds off a little bit of oil to go where?
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smokin_blue

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #24 - 12/07/09 at 19:14:38

two throughts...first if the rings were mis aligned....aligned that is so the end gaps lined up you can get excessive oil transfer.

Second thought....this is exactly what savage greg had if I remember right. when he disassembled if I remember right he found his rings were just plain sacked out. search back for a Greg thread right before he disappeared from the forum...he discussed it at length and then finally disassembled and found the problem....new rings I belive were the solution.

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T Mack 1 - FSO

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #25 - 12/08/09 at 10:00:28

Quote:

Piston, rings and cylinder bore are untouched and are as they were before, when it was running just fine.

Wait, you had the jug (cylinder) off????? Did you re-hone the bore?

My grandfather use to say, "you take the piston out of the jug, buy new rings and hone the bore. You'll be sorry if you don't". Yes, I have not always heeded his words Huh

. And, he's was right.

Remember Savage Greg's experience last year.....

EDIT: reason is that when you take the jug off, there is no way you can get the rings lined up to the grooves in the bore. It will take way more mileage to break in the engine.

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #26 - 12/08/09 at 10:26:48 The bore's nikosil'd, no rehoning that. Rings gone bad due to a dry run maybe? Did you ever figure out what was that screech before it quit?
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Charon

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #27 - 12/08/09 at 11:27:03

Rings on a four-stroke engine are not usually pinned, so they can and do rotate around the piston. When one reassembles an engine, one usually tries to place the rings so the end gaps don't line up, but they aren't guaranteed to stay that way.

Two-stroke engines usually have pins in the ring grooves, so the ends of the rings can't migrate into the ports where they might snag and break.

There is the unpleasant possibility that one of the rings broke during reassembly.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Smoking Issue
Reply #28 - 12/08/09 at 16:08:21

How about you take it all apart again and check each item as you take it apart.

Valve stem clearances, valve stem seals, head gasket seal, O rings, piston itself (cracked crown, cracked ring grooves) all rings, ring positions, assembly of each ring (upside down), the assembly of the 3 part oil scraper assembly (it ain't just a simple oil ring). Check your nikasil bore for flaking or separation as you did have a "screecher" when you tried it time before last time.

Make sure the nikasil is rough enough to seat a new ring (my favorite pick for this mystery illness)

Then put it all back together early enough for it to be running good by June 21st (froggie time).

Me, I'd run the revv'n crap out of it for a while to see if it will seat/seal itself. Leastwise you will eventually figure out what's what when it (whatever it is) finally finishes breaking itself properly.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Smoking Issue Reply #29 - 12/08/09 at 21:43:43 Wind that dude out in 3rd & SLAP the throttle shut a few times.. Thatll set those rings down tight on the bore.
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