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Stage 2 Cam Ride Report (Read 1044 times)
bill67
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #15 - 11/10/09 at 12:36:42
 
  Sounds to me that cam is no good at all to cruise down the highway.
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william h krumpen
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #16 - 11/10/09 at 12:55:44
 
bill67 wrote on 11/10/09 at 12:36:42:
  Sounds to me that cam is no good at all to cruise down the highway.


I think if you are going through all the work to install a "Stage 2" cam, you're not likely planning on just "cruising down the highway."  Grin

I think the owners of a Stage 2 cam are more likely to be the "wickers" among us.  Cool
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05 S40 15" Memphis Slim, FXDWG Bars, Moved Rear Signals, Saddlebags, Fork Bag, Mini-Tach, Raptor, Cone Filter, Fishtail Muffler, Mix Screw Out 2.5 Turns, 4" Fwd Controls, 147.5 Main/55 Pilot @ 4500
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bill67
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #17 - 11/10/09 at 13:49:02
 
  At what speed can you use 5th gear.
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william h krumpen
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #18 - 11/10/09 at 14:57:06
 
Nicolas, zinc-phosphorus compounds (alias ZDDP) do differ strongly in modern car oils from modern car racing oils.  

Car oils are commonly less than 8 ppm (down to five and six with the e-star stuff) whereas racing car oils can have 10-15 ppm which is more in line with what flat tappet bike and car cams need.  Racing car oil costs a lot per quart, but carry a significantly greater load of heavy load additives.

Contrast the older diesel standard, the CI-4 oils -- even the cheapest oil was required to carry at least 15 ppm of ZDDP.  You can still buy the stuff for the older diesel engines that have no sulfur or particulate requirements -- but only in 55 gallon drums.

Modern diesel oils (CJ-4) are required to carry over 10 ppms of ZDDP with greatly reduced sulfur and much higher detergent and surfactant packages to bond, catch and hold particulates for 50,000 plus miles.

These are some of the reasons that Rotella Syn diesel oil carries the JASO certification now, it meets all the requirements of a clutch friendly heavy duty wear additive equipped oil for motorcycle engines.

Now, the question really becomes is the current Rotella T good enough for a Web Stage 2 Cam?   Our vendor has not told us very much except to use Kendal or Valvoline racing oil.  Do these oils embody the real cam oil requirements if looked at technically?

Here is what Valvoline racing has to say:  http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76

This is good stuff at 14 ppm of ZDDP -- built for abuse all the way.

=============

I'd watch out for Kendal -- their 10w40 product specs out as a modern car oil at less than 10 ppm ZDDP.  Their 20w50 product is more robust, but not up to the levels of Valvoline Racing oil.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_o...


In short, if you back the requirements back out of the recommended oils, then we are looking for 15 ppm of ZDDP -- unusually high amounts of of the key heavy pressure additives which are only found in specialty racing oils and a very very few motorcycle oils that have the necessary concentrations of ZDDP (Amisol).  If you don't want to spring for the very pricey Amisol oil, buy Valvoline racing oil or a good diesel oil and bump it up a bit with this stuff.



If you get a Lancer Cam you need to buy a bottle of this stuff and put a couple of ounces in your normal oil change (and maybe 4 ounces in the start up oil you actually break the cam in with).


==============

Bill, you can shift into 5th gear as soon as 40 mph if you want to lug the engine a bit.  You could roll it up to 90 plus (how much more I can't say as I speed wobble about then).  

Yes Bill, this cam is totally useless to you -- it serves no purpose in your world.  We know that already.
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« Last Edit: 11/12/09 at 11:14:47 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #19 - 11/11/09 at 18:18:55
 
sounds great in my world. Plan to go for lancers carb set up, open exhaust port w/ new head pipe, and 1mm overbore one step at a time. Hope i can still hold onto the bars when im done.
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #20 - 11/11/09 at 18:44:30
 
BurnPgh wrote on 11/11/09 at 18:18:55:
sounds great in my world. Plan to go for lancers carb set up, open exhaust port w/ new head pipe, and 1mm overbore one step at a time. Hope i can still hold onto the bars when im done.


The problem is keeping the front end on the ground when launching out of the hole....it really cuts in to the 0-60 & 1/4 mi. times
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #21 - 11/11/09 at 21:48:06
 
Oldfeller wrote on 11/10/09 at 03:47:48:
No tach, I had a digital ENT but I sold it a few years back after getting the second replacement (the early ones failed a lot).  

I would estimate from speed in gear that I have picked up use of an additional 30-40% of the higher rpm ranges that used to be flat and useless before.

Let's see, you have a Stage 1 cam don't you Justin?  I remember your initial ride report and some of your early comments about the performance increase being about as much as putting on the sporty exhaust.

This is more than that, engine pulls strong right on up through and past the original RPM range by a good bit.  Hitting it strong in all the gears has you shifting out of third into 4th at 65 mph, and you never shift out of 4th before hitting strong speed wobble at 90 mph (my back end bash up still has a wobble up at that speed).  And it gets there fast.  My 0-60 time is less time than it takes you to do the 1-2-3 shift at full throttle now.





Yea, I have the stage 1 & yea, it was about 1/2 or so of the exhaust bump. I wunner what I would have felt had I started with the cam..
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #22 - 11/12/09 at 06:30:54
 
Just some general info about using either one of the performance cams.  With the perf cam installed, if the stock carb is retained then this will liimit some of the cam effect.  The same with the stock header; it has a very limiting 1.3" ID and even with a good muffler it still limits the cams ultimate performance capability.
I do not have dyno specifics, but just as a general observation I would estimate the use of a stock carb and header will limit the stage 1perf cam effect by 40-50%.  The stage 2 cam effect limit could be even more.
Replacing the stock carb with a performance unit and the header with a larger tube (1.5" ID is probably the best size) is needed to get the full benefit of a performance camshaft.
Remember, the whole point of changing the cam profile is to allow more fuel/air into and out of the cylinder, and the stock carb and header are primary limiting factors.  The exhaust ports in the head are also an important factor and when using the stage 2 perf cam they definitely should be worked to improve flow.

The Stage 1 cam profile is designed specifically for improved torque & power in the throttle range where we ride most.  This enhances all the great characteristics that we love in the Savage.
The Stage 2 cam profile is what most would consider to be a street/race cam.  It jacks up the throttle range a bit where the torque & power are max.  This one is for the hot rodder.


I fully understand the realities of affordability, that is exactly why and how I ended up doing these mod's myself, because I could not find what I needed in the market or could not afford to buy new retail stuff.
I found used or discounted parts from ebay mostly and some from members here.  I worked to put parts/kits together from there to make it easier for others wanting to do similar mod's.  

With budgeting in mind, I worked my engine mod's in this order: carb swap, perf cam, larger header, and then head porting.
The reason I did the carb before the cam was that I just happened to find an Edelbrock carb on ebay for REALLY cheap and so it just came first.
Damage to the engine case bottom, which was covered by my insurance  Smiley and required an complete engine tear down and rebuild, enabled the first perf cam from Webcam to be made and also a slight rebore, with silicone carbide treatment as well Smiley, done by Bore-tech.
At that point I had the stock carb mounted, though it was modified a bit with a Dial-a-jet, drilled slide for quicker response and rejetted.
I later sold it and installed the Edelbrock. The Edelbrock had a needle that was too rich and so the mod'd stock carb went back on after the rebuild until I could get the correct  needle.
After that I started getting requests from other forum members to rebuild Edelbrocks for them, and that started the whole parts thing.

I've gotten off topic here....... the point was that a perf cam is a part of the equation, with a perf carb & header and exhaust ports being the other primary components.  There is a synergistic effect when all come together.
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #23 - 11/12/09 at 08:41:20
 
Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #24 - 11/12/09 at 19:05:53
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 11/12/09 at 08:41:20:
Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.


Wow, a gutted stock header is way bigger than 1.5" ID.  Why did you do that ?  Was it rusting out or something ?
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #25 - 11/12/09 at 20:06:01
 
Oldfeller wrote on 11/10/09 at 14:57:06:
Nicolas, zinc-phosphorus compounds (alias ZDDP) do differ strongly in modern car oils from modern car racing oils.  

Car oils are commonly less than 8 ppm (down to five and six with the e-star stuff) whereas racing car oils can have 10-15 ppm which is more in line with what flat tappet bike and car cams need.  Racing car oil costs a lot per quart, but carry a significantly greater load of heavy load additives.

Contrast the older diesel standard, the CI-4 oils -- even the cheapest oil was required to carry at least 15 ppm of ZDDP.  You can still buy the stuff for the older diesel engines that have no sulfur or particulate requirements -- but only in 55 gallon drums.

Modern diesel oils (CJ-4) are required to carry over 10 ppms of ZDDP with greatly reduced sulfur and much higher detergent and surfactant packages to bond, catch and hold particulates for 50,000 plus miles.

These are some of the reasons that Rotella Syn diesel oil carries the JASO certification now, it meets all the requirements of a clutch friendly heavy duty wear additive equipped oil for motorcycle engines.

Now, the question really becomes is the current Rotella T good enough for a Web Stage 2 Cam?   Our vendor has not told us very much except to use Kendal or Valvoline racing oil.  Do these oils embody the real cam oil requirements if looked at technically?

Here is what Valvoline racing has to say:  http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76

This is good stuff at 14 ppm of ZDDP -- built for abuse all the way.

=============

I'd watch out for Kendal -- their 10w40 product specs out as a modern car oil at less than 10 ppm ZDDP.  Their 20w50 product is more robust, but not up to the levels of Valvoline Racing oil.

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/kendall/automotive_engine_o...


In short, if you back the requirements back out of the recommended oils, then we are looking for 15 ppm of ZDDP -- unusually high amounts of of the key heavy pressure additives which are only found in specialty racing oils and a very very few motorcycle oils that have the necessary concentrations of ZDDP (Amisol).  If you don't want to spring for the very pricey Amisol oil, buy Valvoline racing oil or a good diesel oil and bump it up a bit with this stuff.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/L/1678.JPG

If you get a Lancer Cam you need to buy a bottle of this stuff and put a couple of ounces in your normal oil change (and maybe 4 ounces in the start up oil you actually break the cam in with).


==============

Bill, you can shift into 5th gear as soon as 40 mph if you want to lug the engine a bit.  You could roll it up to 90 plus (how much more I can't say as I speed wobble about then).  

Yes Bill, this cam is totally useless to you -- it serves no purpose in your world.  We know that already.

    Or you can use Klotz racing oil and no additives needed.
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william h krumpen
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #26 - 11/12/09 at 20:43:29
 
HA! You're great bill. I knew there was a peice of this thread missing.

Serious question though. Im not sure how to word this exactly....Im assuming the stage 2 cam "broadens" the torque range as opposed to simply moving it further up in the rpm range, correct? That seems to be what I gather but it's a bit ambiguous. I know thats not worded very well but I hope you get the point.
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« Last Edit: 11/13/09 at 00:06:03 by BurnPgh »  
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #27 - 11/13/09 at 09:25:36
 
LANCER wrote on 11/12/09 at 19:05:53:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 11/12/09 at 08:41:20:
Okay, Lancer, I gutted my header, so its just the chrome shell, So, what carb should I have on there? If I could get another 40% of the "Bump" I got when I put that cam in, I think it would lift the wheel on torque alone.
Yonuh says his will,.,even with that long set of forks out there.


Wow, a gutted stock header is way bigger than 1.5" ID.  Why did you do that ?  Was it rusting out or something ?




I cant remember Why I started messing with it, but I know I messed up , so I just carefully sliced  the thing up, indexed it so it would all fit back together, pulled the inner pipe out & had it welded back up. Doesnt look bad. The guy TIG'ed it up & charged me ZIP.. It took him about an hour, I helped, fooled around in his shop, man he had some cool stuff in there.. I guess I should post a pic or 2.
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #28 - 11/13/09 at 12:26:01
 

Burn, your question is interesting.  You are used to seeing the Savage be primarily (and only) a torque based motor.  The thought of it being a revving hp based motor really doesn't connect very well to your world picture of the bike right now.  I know it didn't for me.

Wanging the bike through the gears is fast, the bike is roaring & noisy.  You are somewhat reminded of a large bore dirtbike as it is all "quick" now, there is no lumpa-lumpa-lumpa to the acceleration any more.

Hell, I used to watch my tank jiggle in time to the big pulses on the stock bike when doing a full throttle acceleration.  There is no time to watch it accelerate now, it is time to shift, shift, shift.

I used to come turn into my neighborhood and accelerate up to 35-40 mph in the space permitted.  I generally get up to 45 when riding the purple people eater taking the same turn.  Now the Savage hits 45-50 in the same turn.

Your Savage can be ridden like you used to, or it can be goosed now and it will have something to give you back for the goosing.


=============




Recommendation:  Use a high ZDDP oil.  Buy some Red Line Break-In Additive, add 4 oz. to your first oil charge and 2 ounces to each subsequent oil change until you use the bottle up.  You will be using that high lift cam hard, give it a chance to break in properly.

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Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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bill67
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Re: Stage 2 Cam Ride Report
Reply #29 - 11/13/09 at 12:34:10
 
BurnPgh wrote on 11/12/09 at 20:43:29:
HA! You're great bill. I knew there was a peice of this thread missing.

Serious question though. Im not sure how to word this exactly....Im assuming the stage 2 cam "broadens" the torque range as opposed to simply moving it further up in the rpm range, correct? That seems to be what I gather but it's a bit ambiguous. I know thats not worded very well but I hope you get the point.

  Anytime you put in a high speed cam you shorten the power band,The widest power band is the stock cam.
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william h krumpen
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