SuzukiSavage.com - Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignment)

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #15 - 09/08/09 at 08:47:36

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/08/09 at 08:04:39:

Which is much more important than being angry or seeking justice.

Yea, took me a while to learn this one, but life got easier when I relaxed.

Yeah, OldFeller's teaching us a couple of things. How to fix mangled bikes, and how one gets from YoungFeller to OldFeller. By not giving yourself heart problems or strokes.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #16 - 09/08/09 at 09:39:29

Another reason not to get bent overmuch about the whole thing is the support I got out of list members.

Gary on a Savage sent me a care package filled with mirrors, footpegs and turn signals enough to fix all the bashed up parts and have a bit or two left over for next time.

Thanks Gary -- that care package kept me from having to feed the fetch it puppy at Bike Bandit more than a couple doggie biscuits outa my back pocket !!

Why not be happy about it?

Life is good .... (Gary certainly was)

Grin

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #17 - 09/08/09 at 09:55:34

Lets see, today's progress .... Tuned the front wheel, it was .065" radial and .085" lateral with one large broad area dent. This is arguably within Suzuki's (or Clymers) spec range, but I can do better than that.

Got the front wheel down to .025" radial and .020" lateral before I called it quits due to diminishing returns on effort expended (fiddling with spokes gets old pretty quick after the first hour).

How to tune a wheel -- go on the internet and you can find videos and stuff for both bicycles and motorcycles. Lots of it, all the same tricks apply. You need a good 6mm wrench to keep from damaging the flats on the spokes (they will corrode if damaged).

Just remember to do the radial error first, then the lateral, back to the radial and then back to the lateral. Check all spokes when done to make sure all are at least "snug" before doing the last radial/lateral run around.

You can do it a lot quicker if you have a dual indicator set up on a truing stand, but I am doing it with just a single indicator with the wheels still mounted on the bike and the bike jacked up on a bike lift.

===============

Took the shocks off to see if anything was bent or broken and found something interesting. I had them set up at max preload but neither one were at max preload after the big impact. One was at min and the other was at one step down from max.

Impact hit was so hard it jarred the shock preload setting loose, one went over the edge down to minimum and the other went the other way, down one notch from max.

The difference would be katywampus from one side to the other and could maybe play against the speed wobble thing somewhat -- we will see soon enough.

Have you checked your preload settings lately? Have any of you had them move on you like that before?

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« Last Edit: 09/08/09 at 15:59:21 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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Charon

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #18 - 09/08/09 at 09:58:09

I realize State laws about insurance vary. Here in Nebraska we are required to carry uninsured and underinsured motorist coverage. It would seem to me that the uninsured motorist coverage should cover the damage instead of my own comprehensive and collision coverage. Too, my motorcycle is stock and fairly new (2007). I was not intending to criticize your choices, but only to say mine would probably be different.

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Eschew obfuscation.

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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Online Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12671 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen Reply #19 - 09/08/09 at 09:59:50 No problem, I would want to keep my bike anyway because of all of the tweeks and stuff already incorporated into it.
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youzguyz

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #20 - 09/08/09 at 10:09:27

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/08/09 at 09:55:34:

Have you checked your preload settings lately? Have any of you had them move on you like that before?

As a matter of fact.. I think so. It had been a long time since I did 2-up with my daughter, and I was setting my preloads to the stiffest possible. On side took 1 more "click" than the other to get it there.
But, I never noticed a problem with the ride or handling (before or after)
I do hit bumps pretty hard at times.. and I do stand on my pegs if I see a nasty bump coming up.. so I suppose that "could" make the preset jump.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #21 - 09/08/09 at 10:27:53

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/08/09 at 09:55:34:

Lets see, today's progress .... Tuned the front wheel, it was .065" radial and .085" lateral with one large broad area dent. This is arguably within Suzuki's (or Clymers) spec range, but I can do better than that.

Got the front wheel down to .025" radial and .020" lateral before I called it quits due to diminishing returns on effort expended (fiddling with spokes gets old pretty quick after the first hour).
Did you hammer out the radial dents, or did you do it all with spoke tuning?
How to tune a wheel -- go on the internet and you can find videos and stuff for both bicycles and motorcycles. Lots of it, all the same tricks apply. You need a good 6mm wrench to keep from damaging the flats on the spokes (they will corrode if damaged).

Just remember to do the radial error first, then the lateral, back to the radial and then back to the lateral. Check all spokes when done to make sure all are at least "snug" before doing the last radial/lateral run around.

You can do it a lot quicker if you have a dual indicator set up on a truing stand, but I am doing it with just a single indicator with the wheels still mounted on the bike and the bike jacked up on a bike lift.

===============

Took the shocks off to see if anything was bent or broken and found something interesting. I had them set up at max preload but neither one were at max preload after the big impact. One was at min and the other was at one step down from max.

Impact hit was so hard it jarred the shock preload setting loose, one when over the edge down to minimum and the other went the other way, down one notch from max.

The difference would be katywampus from one side to the other and could maybe play against the speed wobble thing somewhat -- we will see soon enough.

Have you checked your preload settings lately? Have any of you had them move on you like that before?

Did you use a hammer to get the radial dents out, or did you do it ALL with just spoke tuning?
Because I have a front wheel like that, and I cannot get the radial dents out of it, which are somewhere between 1/8" to 1/4". The lateral isn't all that bad, about less than 1/8". I got a 6# hammer and a pice of wood, loosened the spokes surrounding that area and whacked the crap out of it, but it won't budge.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #22 - 09/08/09 at 10:57:47

If you want to drive a section of the rim out, away from the axle, you'll need to support the rim on either side of the target zone. Picture standing the rim up on a block in front of & behind the area & putting a block on the spot you want to see moved, then smacking the block. Youd need to support the back end of the block, too. REmoving the spokes in the area you are trying to move away from the axle would seem necessary. The support blocks would have to be contoured to "fit" the wheel, or youll do more damage. You might be ahead to unlace it & work it. With a bottle jack & some ropes, I bet I could get it, but explaining how would take 10 pages.

Heck, maybe not,,A strap around the rim & support on either side with a 4X4 across them. Stick a bottle jack on the 4X4, with the supports under the ends & put the strap on top of the jack. When you jack it up, it will pull the low spot up & hold down on each side of it.
You may be able to leave the tire on. It may even be easier, IDK, just have to mess with it. A 4X4 cut lengthwise diagonally, so you get 2 triangles, relieve the hypotenuse to fit the radius of the tire,,, It'll take longer to get ready that to prove if it works or not.

PS, IDK what your time is worth, but replacement may be a better option. A guy like me? Id spend the time before I spent the dime.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #23 - 09/08/09 at 12:37:33

If your rim dent is a simple localized impact, then the rim lips are just bent locally. You can hammer at them with little effect, or take a piece of aluminum bar stock and make a lip mover.

You remember the old hand held bottle openers, right?

Same principal -- a lever with the fulcrum point at the end and a shaped hook to put pressure on the lip of the rim. Just watch the tip fulcrum to make sure you don't create other types of damage while displacing the lip.

My dents were large broad impacts that I "squeezed" out by loosening the spokes at the dent area completely and then I tightening spokes on the outside of the remaining oval form until the oval form disappeared and VOLA !! almost all of the dent also disappeared as the material was displaced outwards driven by the hoop forces of the disappearing oval.

It isn't perfect and not all of the error can be removed by this method.

You can manipulate a dented rim's circular form with the spokes more than you would think you could ..... you just can't take the deflection out of the actual impacted lip areas with the spokes.

===============

Ride report -- wobble is still there at 67 mph. Not even reduced very much by all the "good things" I just did. Bummer.

===============

Most bang for the buck so far has come from correcting the axis alignment of the rear tire so the front runs straight.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen Reply #24 - 09/08/09 at 13:03:55 I simply dont understand the mechanics of what makes a wobble. I can see it in a turn, when the front end starts yeeeing & Hawwing as the shocks start that up & down action, but in a straight line, I dont get it, certainly at such a low speed.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #25 - 09/08/09 at 15:52:24

It is a handle bar wiggle feeding back to the frame.

Or it is a butt end wiggle feeding forward to the handle bars.

Maybe it takes turns .... durned if I know.

================

You ought to be able to discover what is causing it and fix it.

================

My main issue right now is that I have found LOTS of stuff wrong with my post crash bike. And i am fixing what I find, one item at a time, but so far I haven't discovered the real "root cause" of the wobble --

not yet.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #26 - 09/08/09 at 16:01:49

To note a similar issue with a high speed wobble.
My head bearing are notched (?) at least pitted.
Took them apart, scotch brited the heck out them relubed and they work fine.
The wobble took place because I wasn't able to make fine adjustments to keep it straight. And probably was what made me like I was going to fall over when I test rode the new2me bike. I was turning and the bike was not.
So after putting on the fork brace, adjusting the tire pressure helped, but did not fix.

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Stimpy - FSO

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree
Reply #27 - 09/08/09 at 16:09:13

Heckuva site Stimpoid! Great Find, man..

...yup yup yup, best kept secret on the interwebz! Cheesy

Pinwall Motorcycles used to be a "real store", you know,
a big warehouse up in ohio somewhere but since this
eBay thing seems to be working so well for them they
have recently gone "ebay only" prices are unbeatable
and never had a problem w/shipping, all parts are used
but in good shape, always read "part description". http://stores.shop.ebay.com/PinWall-Cycle-Parts-Inc__W0QQ_sidZ12458664?_nkw=s...

Anyway, THIS WOBBLE seems to me like it may be a bent rear RIM
or AXEL, don't know, maybe the tire itself is damaged and now has
a "bump" (busted steel cords inside?) after the rear end collision,
let us know how it goes, k? L8r

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« Last Edit: 09/08/09 at 22:43:57 by Stimpy - FSO »

Recently sold 97'savage (change of residence) - looking to buy another - just bought a temp, a great SR125 called 'methadone'

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ralfyguy Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 932	Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen Reply #28 - 09/08/09 at 18:34:32 I thought those tires had nylon cords only?
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree (alignmen
Reply #29 - 09/08/09 at 23:53:38

Tire construction has both steel wire bias belts and radial polyester cords. A carcass is made up from at least two radial polyester cord wide layers that incorporates the steel wire bead areas, then it is carried to a second stage machine that forms it into the tire shape and lays the two bias steel belts (two layers of steel wire at criscross angles to each other) then follows it with the thick tread layer on top.

Then into the mold for curing.

A very sharp blow to a tire can rupture some polyester cords and can cause shifting of a steel bias belt, but it has to be very severe to do that. A tire is incredibly strong and it just acts as an envelope to contain the air -- the air carries the entire load and air is both flexible and endlessly durable.

I scanned the sidewall/crown area of my rear tire with an indicator and only found .025" variance -- no evidence of a bruised area with busted cords.

I will ride it a while until this winter's teardown comes, then I will remove the rear wheel and check for a bent axle or warped swing arm.

Around town I never ever hit 67 mph, so this speed wobble really offers me no functional inconvenience at all.

I could ignore this issue very successfully for a period of years if need be ....

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