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Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignment) (Read 552 times)
Oldfeller--FSO
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Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignment)
09/03/09 at 08:55:33
 
My bike was rear ended pretty hard in a parking space while sitting on the side stand.  Impact was strong enough to bend things and move things out of alignment.  Result is the bike now has a high speed wobble condition.

Savages have a short wheel base and tend to be very responsive due to their geometry.   This means if they get warped up a bit, they can do a high speed wobble for you.

High speed wobble isn't new, some Brit bikes had it as a symptom as did the early Jap high speed two strokes.  Yamaha fitted hydraulic dampeners on some models as a stock prevention method.  Some bikes were notorious for it.  

The Savage is not one of them, you gotta have something bent or wrong to have a persistent high speed wobble on a Savage.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #1 - 09/03/09 at 08:59:39
 
Item one is to repair known issues.  If you have a warped banged up triple tree, loosen straighten and repair it.   Ditto for the swingarm and rear axle and the rear wheel.  

Fix what is know to be wrong as well as it can be fixed.  Everything you fix should remove some of the wobble.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #2 - 09/03/09 at 09:20:33
 

ALIGNMENT

You have a bent puppy now -- don't be expecting your rear index marks, etc. to mean what they did when the bike was new.  Bending of the frame and swingarm mean that the rear and front tires have a new relationship and you need to learn more about that to relationship fix it and to properly align it.

Trying to rely on reference marks and such with a bent bike is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE -- you waste time chasing marks and things that have done been changed on you by that impact.

You have a crab-cycle now, the front tire and the rear tire may not even be in a single true line any more.   More likely you are running two parallel lines with your tires and your frame is slightly tilted to your direction of travel.  Don't be amazed at this, some custom bikes are built this way on purpose, especially those with very wide rear tires.

How can you recognize this condition?  Your handle bars are slightly turned to one side when running straight down the road.

How do you fix this?   Adjust the REAR TIRE using the adjustment bolts.

Your front and rear tires must run at the same angle for the bike to physically go straight.  My handle bars are slightly cocked to the right when going straight.   This means my rear tire is slightly cocked to the right even thought the witness marks, etc say that it is OK.

Adjust the rear tire as if you were directly adjusting the cocked front tire.  Moving the rear tire alignment will move the front tire alignment in a 1:1 relationship.   Trust me on this, pavement forces on the tires make this back to front adjustment linkage work.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #3 - 09/03/09 at 09:27:52
 
Since the witless marks are not accurate anymore' you can put a long straightedge to the rear wheel, assuming the wheel spokes are properly adjusted, and compare its' parrallel to the countershaft sprocket that has a straight edge along it.  When they are as straight as you can get them, note the witless marks and WRITE DOWN the difference. Apply this difference whenever adjusting your belt or chain.

Phelonius
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #4 - 09/03/09 at 10:12:52
 
You need a swingarm ? cos I got one I aint gonna need.
Changing it though is a huge PITA ... so make sure you need to swap it ... then swap it.
Cool.
Srinath.

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/03/09 at 08:55:33:
My bike was rear ended pretty hard in a parking space while sitting on the side stand.  Impact was strong enough to bend things and move things out of alignment.  Result is the bike now has a high speed wobble condition.

Savages have a short wheel base and tend to be very responsive due to their geometry.   This means if they get warped up a bit, they can do a high speed wobble for you.

High speed wobble isn't new, some Brit bikes had it as a symptom as did the early Jap high speed two strokes.  Yamaha fitted hydraulic dampeners on some models as a stock prevention method.  Some bikes were notorious for it.  

The Savage is not one of them, you gotta have something bent or wrong to have a persistent high speed wobble on a Savage.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #5 - 09/07/09 at 10:25:19
 
Trying to use a rear wheel based static alignment (a straight edge of any kind) to align a warped frame off of bent components is problematical as all you get is a temporary static alignment of the parts in that particular array/position.   Plus, with a slightly warped rear wheel, what the heck exactly are you indicating off of as your origin?

I am searching for an easy-to-do dynamic method, a running down the road methodology that achieves a functional alignment of some somewhat warped components.

Today is try #2 to get the front and rear wheels running in the same axis.  All I did was adjust the rear wheel, moving it with the axle adjusters as if I was adjusting the error seen on the front wheel/handlebar's direction of bias when running straight down the road.

Result was to "straighten up" the front wheel's running down the road orientation.  Moving the alignment of the rear to correct the cocking/bias that the front was running down the road proves that the rear tire does indeed "control" how the front tire runs down the road.

My tires may not be following each other exactly, but by golly they are finally running parallel to each other and are running in the same parallel axis orientation more closely than they did before.

Speed wobble is decreased in severity by about half and it moved up 5-10 mph to 67-70 as the speed of onset.   This is not fixed, but it is improved and it shows I am maybe chasing the right rabbit.

===================

Now, let's try to get that rear wheel trued up even better -- another go at the spokes is in order.  

Also, let's tighten up all the triple tree allen heads and top caps on the off chance that something is loose.   Ditto for the swingarm cross bolt.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #6 - 09/07/09 at 11:53:21
 
You pretty sure youve got the front wheel true in the forks?
Im pretty sure you do, not as if you just started working on things, just thot Id ask how you lined that up.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #7 - 09/07/09 at 12:32:52
 
Oldfeller:

Sorry about your bike but not all is lost yet and
you where not sitting on it  Cheesy, you have a working
engine and all electrical components in top shape,
I would suggest  that you replace frame/swing-arm
and all other inexpensive but crucial components
so you can have a safe bike.

There is a company called PINWALL which
specializes in selling bikes "by the part"
and has a bunch of savage parts at DIRT
CHEAP PRICES i.e frame $49, swingarm $9.99,
etc; wheels and stuff are also cheap but front end
is not.

Good luck, here is the link:
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/PinWall-Cycle-Parts-Inc__W0QQ_sidZ12458664?_nkw=s...
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #8 - 09/07/09 at 13:50:45
 
Heckuva site Stimpoid! Great Find, man..
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #9 - 09/07/09 at 16:26:44
 
Throwing a bunch of new parts at the issue willy nilly isn't the plan -- developing a method to allow use of imperfect components is the desired goal.

Nothing about the front end or the swingarm was bolt loose -- all fasteners were tight and visually were oriented as expected.  All fasteners were brought up to print max torque.

Justin, you assemble the triple tree, tighten the top caps, tighten the axle/wheel/shocks into a rigid unit (allowing the wheel and axle to self-align the lower portion of the assembly) then you tighten the clamp allen bolts on the lower arm of the triple tree to put the entire front end assembly into a rigid relationship.  Then you check tighten everything again.

The triple tree is self-aligning (provided that the tree portion isn't warped that is).  A fork brace only serves to make the lower shock housings both move together as a fixed pair and it helps keep the lower forks from flexing quite as badly as they normally are able to flex/distort going over bumps, etc.

=================

My post crash rear rim was out .240" laterally and a bit more than .120" radially with one nice .055" deep rim dent when I first started spoke tuning the first time.  It was messed up ....

After two (2) several hour long sessions at the spokes reading a mounted dial indicator squishing out the damage I have the radial down to .030" and the lateral down to .035".  This includes the remainder of the dented section.

Lateral run out measured on the rubber tire is .025" worst case, so the rubber is running fairly true at this point in time.  Radial r/o will tire wear to approaching zero, so most folks don't sweat a little radial r/o on the rubber as they know it is only temporary.  I couldn't reach around to measure it from the swing arm, so I really don't know what it is right now anyway.

Visually, the tire is running much much better than it did post crash.

The Clymer manual lists the desired wheel tuning results as variation to be less than .080" (or 2mm).  This seems high to me as the internet says you tune newly laced rims to .020" true in both axis.  This seems to be doable with new stuff and seems in line with good workmanship on newly laced wheels.

But another place lists 1/16" (.060") as the tuning tolerance goal for a spoke wheel assembly.  Go figure.  I meet two out of the three, so I am gonna run it and see what it does.

==========

Ride report tomorrow.   My back is aching from bending over the spokes so long today, so I am going to call it a night.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #10 - 09/07/09 at 20:44:49
 
Good GOD man, how can you have such a good attitude about this, diligently tweaking your bike instead of sitting with a sniper rifle in the tree nearest that store?  Functional alignment?! I'd be sick to my stomach and looking for a whole new bike if only ONE major component was bent like that, never mind that the warpage is taken out by some other part or you could correct it by cooking up your own alignment system.  I know you will end up with your bike running as true as anyone else's (and not in jail for murder) but I just couldn't stand the thought of it never being the same. You have an incredible laid-back attitude, my hat is off to you sir.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #11 - 09/07/09 at 20:53:24
 
I have to agree with Boule'tard. If my bike gets hit badly enough to bend frame, swing arm, etc, I will file a claim with the insurance and try to get it called a total. Somehow, I do not think I would be capable of trusting a bent/straightened frame.
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Eschew obfuscation.

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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #12 - 09/08/09 at 02:57:44
 
There is no second party to the accident, as he scooted off after putting the bike back up on the side stand.

I have liability only coverage that would have covered damage to the offending party's vehicle and to the curb (if I was at fault, NC law).  

Sorry, I filed no claim since I really didn't care about the curb and the other guy was already gone.  And having my bike insurance cost shoot up for the rest of my life isn't on my game plan either.

And you do realize my bike hasn't been Suzuki standard any more for some time now and that I already tweeked the entire rear end of the bike once previously (but quite intentionally) putting a too large rear tire on it?

Plus my bike is "well used", definitely not a virgin any more.  My scrap out value would have been low even if I had comprehensive insurance.

If I can do this and tell you how, then you know something useful for the next time somebody has a frame issue or gets a speed wobble they want to get rid of.

Life sucks sometimes, get over it quick and go back to being happy about the good parts and you will enjoy your life more.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #13 - 09/08/09 at 04:48:33
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 09/08/09 at 02:57:44:
There is no second party to the accident, as he scooted off after putting the bike back up on the side stand.

I have liability only coverage that would have covered damage to the offending party's vehicle and to the curb (if I was at fault, NC law).  

Sorry, I filed no claim since I really didn't care about the curb and the other guy was already gone.  And having my bike insurance cost shoot up for the rest of my life isn't on my game plan either.


And you do realize my bike hasn't been Suzuki standard any more for some time now and that I already tweeked the entire rear end of the bike once previously (but quite intentionally) putting a too large rear tire on it?

Plus my bike is "well used", definitely not a virgin any more.  My scrap out value would have been low even if I had comprehensive insurance.

If I can do this and tell you how, then you know something useful for the next time somebody has a frame issue or gets a speed wobble they want to get rid of.

Life sucks sometimes, get over it quick and go back to being happy about the good parts and you will enjoy your life more.

I am interested to get educated how you did the spoke tuning so well, as I have a front wheel that needs the same work done.
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Re: Warped frame, swingarm, triple tree  (alignmen
Reply #14 - 09/08/09 at 08:04:39
 
Life sucks sometimes, get over it quick and go back to being happy about the good parts and you will enjoy your life more.



Which is much more important than being angry or seeking justice.

Yea, took me a while to learn this one, but life got easier when I relaxed.
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