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Carbs...again! (Read 491 times)
DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #30 - 08/25/09 at 08:44:55
 
I did a gentle roll from 1/4 to 3/4 throttle in 3rd gear. The S40 smoothly accelerated all the way through. It felt like the rate of acceleration was faster after 1/2 throttle had been reached.

Serowbot wrote on 08/24/09 at 19:21:40:
Rolling off at full throttle before you reach top rpm's, will momentarily richen the mix... by reducing air intake flow with the throttle valve... if this gives a momentary increase in acceleration before dropping,.. you are lean on the main.  Go a step up.
If you just feel a slight decrease in acceleration, you don't need a bigger main.

Go incrementally smaller on the main until you feel that slight power increase during the roll off,... at that point, you are lean, then go one jet size higher to correct size main.

Is the assumption that a few seconds of WOT (independent of RPM) is all it takes for the slide to reach its maximum height?

Maybe a 150 main is all I need, that would explain why I've not noticed the 'momentary increase in acceleration'.

Serowbot wrote on 08/24/09 at 19:21:40:
I would recommend setting your needle jet spacer to 2/3rds of stock ( It will measure .066",... stock is .1"...)  then once you get the jet sizes straitened out, tweak the spacers for best, seat of the pants, acceleration.

The washers I'm using are almost exactly 0.5mm. That means I've got a choice of roughly 36%, 54%, or 71% of stock. I'm running 3 washers (54%) right now.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #31 - 08/25/09 at 08:47:17
 
srinath wrote on 08/24/09 at 08:07:00:
Washers under needle are easily reversible. Try 1 under it and see what it does.
Cool.
Srinath.
I'm really confused.
Do you mean increase the spacer by a washer?

-D. Dwarf

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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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LANCER
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #32 - 08/25/09 at 16:13:16
 
Since your bike is an '07 model, I assume that it  has not had any extended down time which could have left gunk in the carb that would clog any of the tiny passageways, which would affect tuning and cause odd symptoms.

You  have checked and/or adjusted the float to proper level.
You have a stock engine with stock carb and a dyna muffler, which is mounted properly and has no air leaks, which would mess with your tuning efforts otherwise.

With those issues eliminated, you should be able to jet & tune the carb normally.  The majority of others with a stock engine, carb and dyna muffler end up with a #52.5 pilot, 3 washers on the needle, and a #152.5 main jet.  A few engines like a #55 pilot vs the 52.5, but as long as the engine responds to the tuning process normally then either is fine.  Ex:  A #55 with the screw at about 1 turn out, or a #52.5 with the screw at about 2 turns out, can supply an equal amount of fuel so there is no real difference.  Though Mikuni does say somewhere that if you have a choice, it is better to go with the smaller jet @ 2 turns out vs the larger jet @ 1 turn out.  Anyway, as long as you have the right size jet so that when turning the screw you DO have a "happy point" that yields a max rpm at idle, and if you turn either right or left then the engine slows.  That tells you that you have the correct setting.  Also, it is not unusual to have a small range where turning the screw does not seem to change the rpm.  Like you mentioned earlier that between 3/4-1 1/4 turns out there was no change.  This does happen at times, and if so then set the screw in the middle of that range ... in this case at 1 turn out.

3 washers on the needle should work fine for you for the midrange with good pilot and good main jet.

The main jet that gives you the highest speed @ WOT if you have a road you can do that on.  IF not, then the largest main jet that does not bog the engine down @ WOT and near redline rpm in 3rd gear is the one.  Keep going larger until it bogs; then drop down 1 size.

If you go through this process and it is still not working correctly, and you know that you have good ignition, then pull the carb and tear it down to look for the problem.  Something is clogged.  There are several very small passageways and a single small grain of sand can easily clog them.

Good luck man, I know how frustrating it can be at times.
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #33 - 08/25/09 at 18:34:54
 
Lancer,

Thank you for your post. I'd just convinced myself I need to return completely to stock and start over. I've never had this bike stock!

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
Since your bike is an '07 model, I assume that it  has not had any extended down time which could have left gunk in the carb that would clog any of the tiny passageways, which would affect tuning and cause odd symptoms.

Longest down time I'm aware of is Nov - March. I did use fuel stabilizer.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
You  have checked and/or adjusted the float to proper level.

I have not. I've managed to avoid pulling the carb up to this point. Later in the week I'll have time to get some smaller ID tubing and retry that trick.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
You have a stock engine with stock carb and a dyna muffler, which is mounted properly and has no air leaks, which would mess with your tuning efforts otherwise.

Correct.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
With those issues eliminated, you should be able to jet & tune the carb normally.  The majority of others with a stock engine, carb and dyna muffler end up with a #52.5 pilot, 3 washers on the needle, and a #152.5 main jet.  A few engines like a #55 pilot vs the 52.5, but as long as the engine responds to the tuning process normally then either is fine.  Ex:  A #55 with the screw at about 1 turn out, or a #52.5 with the screw at about 2 turns out, can supply an equal amount of fuel so there is no real difference.  Though Mikuni does say somewhere that if you have a choice, it is better to go with the smaller jet @ 2 turns out vs the larger jet @ 1 turn out.  Anyway, as long as you have the right size jet so that when turning the screw you DO have a "happy point" that yields a max rpm at idle, and if you turn either right or left then the engine slows.  That tells you that you have the correct setting.  Also, it is not unusual to have a small range where turning the screw does not seem to change the rpm.  Like you mentioned earlier that between 3/4-1 1/4 turns out there was no change.  This does happen at times, and if so then set the screw in the middle of that range ... in this case at 1 turn out.

At 1/2 turns out it slows slightly. It is less than 1/4 turns out when it really starts to bog. It doesn't stall even at 0 turns out.

Back to the original topic: Which is better for the engine when it's warm out and the engine is cold...
a) Choke to first notch - idles rough, but runs OK
b) No Choke - idles OK, but runs rough

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
The main jet that gives you the highest speed @ WOT if you have a road you can do that on.  IF not, then the largest main jet that does not bog the engine down @ WOT and near redline rpm in 3rd gear is the one.  Keep going larger until it bogs; then drop down 1 size.

I don't have a road I can safely do more than 70 on. I'll try redlining 3rd gear later in the week with the 150 main.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
If you go through this process and it is still not working correctly, and you know that you have good ignition, then pull the carb and tear it down to look for the problem.  Something is clogged.  There are several very small passageways and a single small grain of sand can easily clog them.

I don't think that'll be necessary. Part of the problem is that I'm attempting to understand why, rather than just follow instructions.

Thanks for the help.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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LANCER
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #34 - 08/25/09 at 22:21:31
 
As others have mentioned before, you've gotta get the float level adjusted properly or else you'll beat yourself in the head at every step.

Also, you have noted a couple of times that the engine still runs with the adj screw turned IN all the way to the bottom ... odd ... it should die when you do that since that is supposed to close off all pilot circuit fuel ... hmmm, so where is the extra fuel coming from ?  We have another mystery.

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« Last Edit: 08/27/09 at 18:58:56 by LANCER »  
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #35 - 08/26/09 at 09:50:03
 
LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 22:21:31:
Also, you have noted a couple of times that the engine still runs with the adj screw turned IN all the way to the bottom ... odd ... it should die when you do that since that is supposed to close off all pilot circuit fuel ... hmmm, so where is the extra fuel coming from ?  We have another mystery.

Could it be because the idle is turned up? I think it was idling about 1200 RPM last time I did audio analysis on it (no tach). Would that be enough to expose one of the unmetered pilot outlet holes?

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #36 - 08/26/09 at 10:16:58
 
hmmm the engine doesnt die when i put the screw all the way in?

but it does if i use the choke?
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93" savage, 177.5 main, 52.5 w/holes 3 turns out , middle circlip, 6" k&n round filter, Dyna muffler, TKAT brace
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #37 - 08/26/09 at 19:14:01
 
LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 22:21:31:
As others have mentioned before, you've gotta get the float level adjusted properly or else you'll beat yourself in the head at every step.

Either my garage isn't level or the carb doesn't sit perfectly vertical.

Using the clear tubing method:
* Toward the middle of the carb it was right at the gasket
* Toward the back of the carb, it was a bit low

Something must be causing the back of the carb to be higher than the front.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #38 - 08/27/09 at 06:05:53
 
I still get an occasional muffled WUMP on shutdown and afterfire on throttle close.
Seems to happen more when the engine is cold or the air is hot.

LANCER wrote on 08/19/09 at 17:44:03:
DrunkenDwarf wrote on 08/19/09 at 14:08:49:
*It dies if I push the choke in without a little throttle, is that normal?
NO ... wierd, considering the above symptoms

If the engine is fully warmed up, when I push the choke in the engine RPMs dip, but recover without stalling.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
The main jet that gives you the highest speed @ WOT if you have a road you can do that on.  IF not, then the largest main jet that does not bog the engine down @ WOT and near redline rpm in 3rd gear is the one.  Keep going larger until it bogs; then drop down 1 size.

Hit 75 in 3rd today, no bogging. I had to merge, but I think I was pretty closed to maxed out.
I'll go up a jet and retest. Supposed to rain, so it may be a few days.

-D. Dwarf

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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #39 - 08/28/09 at 05:33:14
 
my bike likes the 150 main jet as well? its stock except for the dyna muffler
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93" savage, 177.5 main, 52.5 w/holes 3 turns out , middle circlip, 6" k&n round filter, Dyna muffler, TKAT brace
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #40 - 08/28/09 at 05:50:17
 
I noticed something odd yesterday morning when I got to work. There was a liquid on carburetor, between the carburetor and the engine. It didn't smell like gas.

I guess it could be condensation, but it would surprise me that the carburetor body would be cold.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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LANCER
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #41 - 08/28/09 at 08:25:48
 
DrunkenDwarf wrote on 08/27/09 at 06:05:53:
I still get an occasional muffled WUMP on shutdown and afterfire on throttle close.
Seems to happen more when the engine is cold or the air is hot.

LANCER wrote on 08/19/09 at 17:44:03:
DrunkenDwarf wrote on 08/19/09 at 14:08:49:
*It dies if I push the choke in without a little throttle, is that normal?
NO ... wierd, considering the above symptoms

If the engine is fully warmed up, when I push the choke in the engine RPMs dip, but recover without stalling.

LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
The main jet that gives you the highest speed @ WOT if you have a road you can do that on.  IF not, then the largest main jet that does not bog the engine down @ WOT and near redline rpm in 3rd gear is the one.  Keep going larger until it bogs; then drop down 1 size.

Hit 75 in 3rd today, no bogging. I had to merge, but I think I was pretty closed to maxed out.
I'll go up a jet and retest. Supposed to rain, so it may be a few days.

-D. Dwarf



Did it accelerate normally during that run ?  Any hesitation or other negative symptoms ?  If not then it sounds like you have pretty well got you carb set.  75 mph in 3rd is very good.
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #42 - 08/28/09 at 09:11:56
 
I know 75 in 4th is 5500 rpm
So would that be 6500 rpm in 3rd?
I wouldn't want to go any faster... in 3rd.   Shocked
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carbs...again!
Reply #43 - 08/28/09 at 10:17:05
 
LANCER wrote on 08/28/09 at 08:25:48:
DrunkenDwarf wrote on 08/27/09 at 06:05:53:
LANCER wrote on 08/25/09 at 16:13:16:
The main jet that gives you the highest speed @ WOT if you have a road you can do that on.  IF not, then the largest main jet that does not bog the engine down @ WOT and near redline rpm in 3rd gear is the one.  Keep going larger until it bogs; then drop down 1 size.

Hit 75 in 3rd today, no bogging. I had to merge, but I think I was pretty closed to maxed out.
I'll go up a jet and retest. Supposed to rain, so it may be a few days.

-D. Dwarf


Did it accelerate normally during that run ?  Any hesitation or other negative symptoms ?  If not then it sounds like you have pretty well got you carb set.  75 mph in 3rd is very good.


I believe so. I don't have anything to compare it to. It didn't make any funny noises.

I'm still going to try the larger main jets, I'd like to experience a 'bad' run for comparison.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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