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Are Motorcycle Oils Different? (Read 542 times)
bill67
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #15 - 08/17/09 at 14:18:25
 
Suzuki oil is made by shell,But its not diesel oil.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #16 - 08/17/09 at 14:43:26
 
Yup, it lacks the soot dispersants and anti-foaming package levels that a diesel oil requires.   And since most Suzuki bikes don't have flat tappet valve trains (our bike is a living antique in that aspect) it may be somewhat short on ZDDP levels as well.

A diesel oil will strip all the sludge & crap out of your bike's engine, cleaning it up in a few oil changes to a very internally clean state.

Someone mentioned this action up thread, but they had thought the oil was breaking down.  If it was Rotella Syn, it wasn't even getting broken in good yet at 2,000 miles but may have looked dirty from having scrubbed a bunch of the residual filth out of your engine.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #17 - 08/18/09 at 05:43:58
 
Wasn't Rotella synthetic.  Various charts - gotta go to work or I'd find one - show oil shear resistance breaking down pretty quickly in a wet plate clutch system.  I suspect my use is pretty hard on it - a fair amount of friction zone every morning when fairly cold, constant shifting, and a fairly short commute.  

The color I'm not worried about.  Figured the diesel oil would clean the interior nicely - the first load of oil was pretty dirty in 200 miles!  This second load is pretty clean looking at 250 miles.  Figure most of the crap will be out with this load.  I'm also doing longer trips when I can, with less shifting.  And I'm getting better at shifting a bike, so it should be good for a little longer.  

The obvious thing for me to do is to get another bike.  Thinking Volusia . . . .
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #18 - 08/18/09 at 05:48:37
 
Another bonus for no clutch? No oil shear?
Of course, oil shear, from gears, etc, but when using  no clutch, less?
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #19 - 08/18/09 at 08:30:13
 
Do some research and you will find that synthetics have greater shear resistance compared to dino oils, especially the multi-weight 10w40 class of dino oils.

Full synthetics like the Rotella Syn are a homogeneous single molecule base synthetic oil with no polymer adders -- that is why you get the low first number as the Syn Rotella simply is what it is and it does not change viscosity very much as the temperature goes up or down.  

It is close to the proper thickness/viscosity for a 250 degree fully engine warmed up 40 weight dino oil as it sits there in the bottle.  Throw it in the freezer and it won't thicken very much at all.   Heat it up to 400 degrees and it won't thin out very much at all.  

It is what it is.   It is an extreme temperature resistant molecule (says so on the bottle too).

As such it totally lacks many of the polymer multiweight adders that are put in dino oils to get the multi-weight ratings, polymer adders that shear easily in a gear box, giving the multi-weight dino oils their bad rap for shearing.

And what makes you think a wet clutch is particularly hard on synthetic oil anyway?  Lots of square inches of contact surface in a clutch and pressure per square inch in a clutch is quite low -- if our clutch had enough pressure/shear to be hard on a synthetic oil it would shred any dino oil for breakfast.  
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #20 - 08/18/09 at 11:16:59
 
Oil molecules don't shear.  The polymer viscosity index improvers shear.  These are tiny bits of plastic that change shape as the temperature of the oil changes.  They thicken a hot thin oil so it tests like a hot thick oil.  Under mechanical stress these plastic bits get broken (sheared) and no longer thicken the oil.  There is a range of quality and cost available in VIIs.  The best are extremely shear stable.  I looked at a product data sheet for a better oil than Shell Rotella T synthetic, and even this oil uses "a highly shear stable viscosity index improver."  Among the reasons this is a better oil than Rotella syn is that it is about 75% Group III base oil and about 25% Group IV (PAO) base oil.  I don't know if a wet clutch shears VIIs.  The transmission gears do shear the VIIs.

Shell makes the base oil in Rotella syn by refining crude oil.  It has the legal right to be marketed as a full synthetic in the U.S., but is not a "true" synthetic like the polyalphaolefin or the ester base oils.  Chevron has great web pages describing their Group III base oil and how it is refined from an intermediate product in crude refining, vacuum gas oil:
http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/isodewax.aspx
And here's Chevron's description of the performance of Group III base oil...Chevron calls theirs Unconventional Base Oil, UCBO.  Shell calls theirs Extremely High Viscosity Index, XHVI.
http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/grp3_perform.aspx

So, among so-called synthetic oils there are differences in the cost, performance, and chemistry in the base oils, and differences in the cost and performance in the additive packages including the viscosity index improvers.  Probably the best synthetic is PAO mixed with some ester base oil.  Group III with some PAO is excellent.  The best Group III base oils are very good, and there are some low cost Group III on the market that just meets spec and aren't that great.  Shell makes a very good Group III.

Here's a comparison of various base oils showing where PAO is better and where Group III is just as good:
http://www.chevron.com/products/sitelets/baseoils/comp_med.aspx
Conventional oils will be made from Group II or a base oil above the Group II spec but not quite Group III unofficially called Group II+.  A 15W-40 is probably a mixture of Group II and Group II+.  A conventional 10W-40 is probably Group II+ with ample VIIs or cheaper Group II with lots of VIIs.  Just about every oil, conventional and many synthetics will contain VIIs.  Less VIIs and higher cost/quality VIIs are better.

Viscosity index is a numerical index of the viscosity change in oil from 40°C to 100°C.  A higher VI number indicates an oil that thins less when hot and thickens less when cold.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #21 - 08/19/09 at 06:03:07
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/18/09 at 08:30:13:
Do some research and you will find that synthetics have greater shear resistance compared to dino oils, especially the multi-weight 10w40 class of dino oils.

Full synthetics like the Rotella Syn are a homogeneous single molecule base synthetic oil with no polymer adders -- that is why you get the low first number as the Syn Rotella simply is what it is and it does not change viscosity very much as the temperature goes up or down.  

It is close to the proper thickness/viscosity for a 250 degree fully engine warmed up 40 weight dino oil as it sits there in the bottle.  Throw it in the freezer and it won't thicken very much at all.   Heat it up to 400 degrees and it won't thin out very much at all.  

It is what it is.   It is an extreme temperature resistant molecule (says so on the bottle too).

As such it totally lacks many of the polymer multiweight adders that are put in dino oils to get the multi-weight ratings, polymer adders that shear easily in a gear box, giving the multi-weight dino oils their bad rap for shearing.

And what makes you think a wet clutch is particularly hard on synthetic oil anyway?  Lots of square inches of contact surface in a clutch and pressure per square inch in a clutch is quite low -- if our clutch had enough pressure/shear to be hard on a synthetic oil it would shred any dino oil for breakfast.  


I know synthetics have greater shear resistance.  The lack of polymer crap is what attracts me.  I never indicated that I thought a wet clutch was hard on synthetics. I think it's hard on multiweight additives in conventional oil.  You misread me.  

My only concern with synthetics is cost.  I think I'll keep this bike, so that weighs into the equation less.  I'll have to find a good local source for a reasonably priced synthetic.  I've been using the Rotella non-synthetic, and it works fine but I'm far from convinced it's lasting a long time.  I may run another batch through after this one.  It's cleaning the engine out very nicely!  Not that there was much crap, but it's obviously pulled out some.  The first batch went dirty very fast, this batch not so fast.  I'll drain it pretty quick, too.  The filter looks good still, through the magnification I can bring to bear.  Which isn't enough, of course!  I imagine I can use it for another change, then change it out when I go to synthetic.  


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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #22 - 08/19/09 at 10:20:17
 
Since I can watch the oil usage go up as the oil gets about 2,500 miles on it, I feel confident it is shearing, the shorter chains are more able to go into places & be burned off or leak out. So, I change it. The parts are well protected, I believe. I have learned the pattern & I change it as soon as I see an increased use.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #23 - 08/19/09 at 11:42:11
 
Cost Comparison   (from lowest to highest per oil change)

Rotella T 15w40 Triple-protection white jug dino $11 a gallon at Walmart -- thermal protection good -- (needs to be changed every 2,000 miles)   oil cost per change $6  cost per year $12

=========

Rotella Synthetic 5w-40 blue jug synthetic $19 a gallon at Walmart -- thermal protection excellent -- needs to be changed once a year oil cost per change $10 cost per year $10

=========

Mobil 1 / Amisol / Klotz  over $10 a quart -- thermal protection excellent -- needs to be changed once a year oil cost per change over $20 cost per year over $20



The point here is the blue jug Rotella Synthetic has the lowest cost per year.  Even though white jug Rotella dino oil cost less per oil change you still have to do two of them so it winds up costing you more per year .... plus the extra filter cost and your time & aggravation factor
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #24 - 08/19/09 at 12:15:20
 
Exactly.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #25 - 08/19/09 at 12:15:40
 
You bring up an interesting point which I have forgotten...

How many miles can I run with for Mobil 1 / Amsoil / Klotz ?
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #26 - 08/19/09 at 18:20:31
 
Mobil 1 claims 5,000 miles for normal Mobil 1 and 15,000 miles for red cap "Extended".

Red cap "Extended" meets the Savage requirements for ZDDP.  So does Mobil 1 V-Twin motorcycle oil.   Note:  Mobil 1 normal car oil does not meet Savage ZDDP requirements.  

I could not see trying to run them for 15,000 miles any more than I could see shooting for 100,000 miles on a crankcase full of Rotella Synthetic.

We ain't got a car and we ain't got a 10 micron or better by-pass type oil cleaner like them diesel boys use.  Normal biker guys put about 5,000 miles a year on a bike, so synthetic oils should be good for a calender year for us,  IF ....

..... if you run a super magnet on your oil filter to get your metallic bits out of the oil

..... if you will always dump it and change it out if you have a fuel contamination issue

..... if you use enough oil to "top off" the oil occasionally to keep your additive packages refreshed.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #27 - 08/19/09 at 18:22:14
 
I got Klotz mx4 15w50 coming tomorrow $14.25 a quart.I think a 650 single needs the best you can get,Cheap insurance.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #28 - 08/19/09 at 22:45:50
 
So with m1 I can go 5k miles
currently change oil every other month, but in the heat of the summer it look like I burn a qt of RotSyn a week.

I will pick up a gal of m1 and see how long it lasts.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #29 - 08/19/09 at 23:08:26
 
You use a quart of oil a week??  Where is it all going?

You are doing a 50% weekly replacement ongoing, so you never need to change your oil.

For you, a vital benefit of synthetic oils is that they do not smoke as badly as dino oils do when burned in the combustion process.
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