SuzukiSavage.com - Are Motorcycle Oils Different?

PTRider

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Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
08/15/09 at 19:50:06

Below is a blurb from Infineum, one of the world's major additive suppliers. Infineum is a joint venture between ExxonMobil and Royal Dutch/Shell. Engine oils are about 75~80% pure base oil and about 20~25% additive package...detergents, dispersants, antiwear agents, antioxidants, antifoamants, pour point depressants, corrosion inhibitors, friction modifiers, viscosity index improvers, dye, etc. Whether an engine oil is conventional or synthetic is the difference in the base oil.

Quote:

Operating conditions for motorcycles are more severe than in automobiles, with higher operating temperatures, wider power bands and higher engine speeds. In addition, a large number of applications use only one lubricant for the engine compartment, transmission and the various clutches – integral clutch or wet clutch - which makes friction performance of the oil critical.

This has led to the development of JASO standards for four-stroke motorcycle engine oils. With input from OEMs, Infineum has developed specific products, thoroughly tested in the field, to address the issues facing four-stroke oils. Compared with standard automotive oils, finished oils formulated with Infineum four-stroke additive packages provide optimized performance, ensure strong clutch friction feel, protect against corrosion, and deliver outstanding wear protection.

JASO = Japanese Automotive Standards Organization

Other major additive suppliers include Chevron Oronite, Lubrizol, Afton Chemical (no motorcycle oil package from Afton).

So...Motorcycle oil is different from automobile engine oil in more than just the price. I'm not saying that using motorcycle oil is essential to long engine, transmission and clutch life--I'm using a "racing oil" labeled as OK for motorcycles--just that it isn't the same stuff in a higher priced bottle. The high price is because the oil is something different in relatively low production volumes...and because they can get the high price. Undecided

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Bear

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #1 - 08/15/09 at 20:59:56

You peaked my interest with the JASO spec. Went out to the garage and checked a bottle of Valvoline 20W-50 Motorcycle oil. The brand that I use. Label says JASO MA. That is the motorcycle rating.
It does NOT have the energy conserving starburst (You don't want that anyway)
It is also rated API SF/SG/SJ
I stocked up when it was on sale $2.99 qt and bought 3 cases of the stuff.
It also makes my very old John Deere riding mower sing. Mower runs HOT HOT HOT (big weeds - full throttle) and cheap 30 weight will smell burnt and have a chocolate color when drained. Valvoline motorcycle oil does not burn like that in the mower.
Oil is like paint - Ya get what you pay for. Valvoline Motorcycle oil $2.99 on sale, regular 3.99 qt. Quite reasonable for quality stuff. In this small town of 5500, two auto supply stores carry it.
I do have Rotella in the shop - for my diesel tractor - what it is made for!!

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Gort Ex Member	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #2 - 08/15/09 at 21:52:17 This info should also be in the Technical section. Posts there usually last longer. This is important information and valuable to those who are confused by all the uninformed opinions that are posted on this site about which oils are best for your bike.
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #3 - 08/15/09 at 22:02:38 friction modifiers, Wuhh? I do have Rotella in the shop - for my diesel tractor - what it is made for!! & as long as it has nothing in it that makes it Not Suitable for bikes, why not use it?If it will handle the rigors of keeping a diesel in one piece. how crappy can it be?
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #4 - 08/15/09 at 22:41:13

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 08/15/09 at 22:02:38:

friction modifiers,

Wuhh?

I do have Rotella in the shop - for my diesel tractor - what it is made for!!

& as long as it has nothing in it that makes it Not Suitable for bikes, why not use it?If it will handle the rigors of keeping a diesel in one piece. how crappy can it be?

Never said Rotella was crappy. I used to work for an electric utility with about 200 vehicles. Their "fleet" oil was Rotella, 15w-40 used in everyting from diesel line trucks, backhoes, compressors, pickups and sedans. Rotella is good oil, but is it the best thing for a motorcycle? Why not use stuff that is formulated and labeled for motorcycles? Price difference between Rotella and Valvoline motorcycle oil is about the price of a Snickers Bar.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #5 - 08/15/09 at 22:44:35 I grabbed Rotella at $9.00/gallon. 4X $3.00 is $12.00. How big a Snikkers you buyin there Duuude?
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voldigicam

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #6 - 08/16/09 at 04:32:39

That's a very interesting and useful pieced of information. I just put a second batch of Rotella in my bike. Immediately could tell that just under 1000 miles on the last batch had torn up the oil pretty well. Improved shifting and clutch friction zone. Just a tiny bit, but very clear. I was sure the oil was degrading, changing it just demonstrated how fast it does tear up.

I'll get some JASA MA oil next time, assuming I can find some around here.

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srinath

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #7 - 08/16/09 at 08:10:32

Rotella is great oil, I have run it in my GS500, the volvoline 20W50 is a great buy @3 bones a bottle, no question. Personally I like that 20W50 range though not for low mile suzuki's.
Jaso IMHO is over rated. If an oil says SF/SG/SJ/SM then its the same as SM. The standard is decreasing amount of the good stuff. No more than so much PPM of zinc lets say, and 20 = F, 15=G, 10=J, and 5=M, so SM oil automatically is under 20, 15, 10 and 5 so its SF/SG/SJ/SM.

I like oil that is SF and nothing else. I want zinc, I dont have catalytic converters in my bike and sensors either. I'd run SA is they had that.

Cool.
Srinath.

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PTRider

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #8 - 08/16/09 at 08:37:29

--Not all oils contain every one of the possible additives, and I might have left one or two off my list. Some don't contain friction modifiers or contain some that don't harm wet clutches. The friction modifiers in ATF are an example as ones suitable for wet clutches, but they are not a direct relationship to engine oil (no, don't put ATF in your motorcycle).

--Only xW-20 & xW-30 oils can qualify to get an Energy Conserving label--They will also have the ILSAC GF-4 label.

--Your comments about zinc content don't quite hit the mark. The zinc is bound in a zinc phosphate compound, ZDDP, Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate or related compounds. The phosphate limit in GF-4 oils (API Service Category SM, but not all SM oils are GF-4) is from 0.06% to 0.08%, and the zinc in the compound is about 10% higher than the phosphate. SM oils that are not GF-4 can have a higher zinc phosphate content. SJ & SL oils that were also GF-2 & GF3, respectively, and Energy Conserving had an upper limit on the phosphorus of 0.1%. Even SG oils usually didn't have more than 0.1%. SF oils had whatever the oil maker chose to put in, sometimes up to 0.15%. It must be noted that ZDDP isn't the only antiwear and antiscuff agent, and antioxidant...it is just very effective and very cheap. The latest diesel engine spec, API CJ-4, has a phosphate limit of 0.12%. Earlier diesel engine specs had no limit. SA, SB, SC, SD, and SE oils would be a disaster in any modern high output engine, including ours.

More about American Petroleum Institute Service Categories:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/English_Oil_Gui...

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #9 - 08/17/09 at 05:39:50

How long does it take your bike to warm up?

That is how long that the difference in the first set of weight numbers applies to anything that is real, and it has more to do with cold climate starting ease than anything to do with normal temperature running of the engine.

A 0w50 and a 20w50 are the same thickness at running temperature. The 0w50 will crank a lot easier in a Minnesota winter and will circulate a lot faster (provide lube film to all parts faster) and allow the car to warm up quicker.

Most "wear" on an engine takes place at start up due to no oil being there at the particular junction -- does everyone understand/agree with this traditional many times proven nugget of information? For us, getting oil pumped up to the aluminum cam journals very quickly on start up is the key vital item for our engine.

The normal protection difference between an xxw50 and an xxw40 oil at operating temperature is not a whole lot. Suzuki gives them the exact same higher level temperature range rating -- right out the top of the chart. Indeed, the absolute top temperature level protection would go to the synthetic 40 weight instead of the dino 50 weight as the dino 50 would break down some before the synthetic 40 weight would even start to degrade. The dino 50 would be thinned and damaged to offer a lesser protection level than the stubborn synthetic 40 at any very high "motor damaging" temperature range.

============

Truth is, most of us judge an oil by what we see/feel when we pour it out of the bottle. And that is unfortunately the least important characteristic of an oil.

Can you agree that diesel engines are much more stressful than a car engine? Do you remember when Chevy took a stock 350 big block and turned it into a diesel back in the late 70's and how the world howled and forced Chevy to eat warranty on ALL the products they put that engine into because the 350's block/mains/rod bearings simply couldn't take what a diesel engine dealed out in abuse levels to both oil and bearings? A diesel runs hard compared to a normal car engine -- 20:1 compression is much higher physical forces on all related components compared to 10:1.

Last point is this -- there are no xxw50 diesel oils. They are all xxw40 oils because that is the optimum weight to move around an engine and to provide maximum protection.

Racing engines from the major race crews don't run 50w oils either as it saps horsepower and they don't want or need that sort of action.

Joe ordinary believes that thicker is better and 50w oils pour thicker than 40w or 30w oils so they are obviously "better".

Grin

Happy oil war to you all .....

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PTRider

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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #10 - 08/17/09 at 11:03:48

I've run diesel engines that used 30 wt. oil in the crankcase and 60 wt. for cylinder & ring lubrication...these ran at 4,792 hp per cylinder...straight 12 cylinder two-stroke 57,500 hp @ 95 rpm, also multiple 3,350 hp 900 rpm straight 8 generator engines with 40 wt oil. The oil viscosity must relate to the size of the clearances. And, other things remaining equal, higher viscosity oil has greater film strength. The pressure on the bearings is a product both the force and the surface area of the bearings. Expect truck-size diesels to be using diesel-rated 10W-30 commonly in the future for the 1%~2% fuel savings, and the engines will be designed for this oil. The big engines had bearing shells that needed chain hoists to lift the shells. We straddled the journals like we were on horseback. Yep, a crew of men with chain hoists in the crankcase.

Yes, those Oldsmobile 350 diesels were a disaster. GM converted the gas engine to diesel, tested them, redesigned whatever broke, tested again, redesigned again, etc., etc., until they improved from terrible to not-very-good. They had low power and no real reason to be on the market at all. The really, really disappointed owners were those with this engine in a pickup...low power and poor reliability.

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #11 - 08/17/09 at 11:32:55 Why does Amsoil have motorcycle oil and oil for diesels,Ask them which you should run in a motorcycle.
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Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different?
Reply #12 - 08/17/09 at 12:31:30

Since Amisol charges over $10 a quart for either item, I won't be asking them anything. To buy their product is an exercise in "conspicuous consumption" (fancy talk for putting on the Ritz).

I ain't that rich, thank you.

Hard truth time -- our bikes run great big honking ball bearings at all cross shaft positions and any oil that will not cook itself if over-heated will lube a ball bearing (if there is a good flow of it and you don't overheat the engine).

Our unique needs are a large amount of anti-galling additives that don't hurt our clutches (this generally means ZDDP) in a base oil that can withstand any stupid ridiculous heat build up in the head area that might occur due to outside temperature or very hard useage (and this means a full synthetic oil).

Finally, beyond the high temperature rating and the flat tappet/cam and cam chain thing with ZDDP, you need to get some oil flow up to the cam bearings pronto when you crank the engine in the wintertime.

So, pick your poison and go with it. For those that want to pay over $30 for an oil change, go with Mobil 1 motorcycle or the Amisol motorcycle oils. For those who want the same protection components in a less pricey product (in a big 'ol blue gallon jug no less) buy some of this stuff.

It (and some EMCO oil filters) will cost you less than half what the Mobil 1/Amisol oil change will cost you.

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #13 - 08/17/09 at 13:20:52 I want use nothing but Klotz racing synthetic motorcycle oil in my motorcycles High price oil but you save in the long run.Hasn't used a drop in the last 2000 miles,But I don't run high rpms. It has zero wear. I wouldn't use nothing but Suzuki oil filters they rate at the top and also fit.
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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28625 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Are Motorcycle Oils Different? Reply #14 - 08/17/09 at 14:09:38 Don't know where they're available but, I get Hi-Flo oil filters from my local shop for $2.99, and they are indistinguishable from Suzuki.... Suzuki doesn't actually make their own filters... they are sub-contracted....as are tires, tubes, shocks, plugs, bulbs, carbs, oil,... and on and on...
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