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omg! new rings+valves+plug (w/pics + walkthrough) (Read 2331 times)
Stimpy - FSO
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omg! new rings+valves+plug (w/pics + walkthrough)
07/06/09 at 16:56:51
 
New update: Wrote a walkthrough, go down to read.

Update: Done!

Update: 1/2 way done   ...will update soon w/lots of pics and QUITE a story.


Oh boy, the day is finally here, on Wednesday (08July09) I'll crack
open the engine to fix the plug/seal we all know and love.

But since I'll be half way there anyway I'll be checking the timing chain
tensor, changing the valve seals and maybe install new rings
IF the condition of the piston permits it; all this mainly because I have
been unable to pinpoint exactly where the hell is all my oil going,
since the small plug leak is surely not responsible for losing 1qt of oil
every 300miles since the bike does not "leak", but burns this oil during
combustion; I'm pretty sure its the valve seals.

Anyway, there is a lot of documentation on the plug but little on rings
and even less on the valve seals, ANY LAST MINUTE POINTERS?


I'll keep you posted and upload pics of the process soon, thanx











Cheesy
!
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« Last Edit: 09/02/09 at 00:19:30 by Stimpy - FSO »  

Recently sold 97'savage (change of residence) - looking to buy another - just bought a temp, a great SR125 called 'methadone'
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Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Re: advice pls :on new rings, valve seals & plug
Reply #1 - 07/06/09 at 17:21:32
 
Stimpy - FSO wrote on 07/06/09 at 16:56:51:
Oh boy, the day is finally here, on Wednesday I'll crack open
the engine to fix the plug/seal we all know and love.

But since I'll be half way there anyway I'll be checking the timing chain tensor,
changing the valve seals and maybe install new rings IF the condition
of the piston permits it; all this mainly because I have been unable to pinpoint
exactly where the hell is all my oil going, since the small plug leak is surely
not responsible for losing 1qt of oil every 300miles since the bike does not
"leak", but burn this oil during combustion; im pretty sure its the valve seals.

Anyway, there is a lot of documentation on the plug but little on rings
and even less on the valve seals, ANY LAST MINUTE POINTERS?


I'll keep you posted and upload pics of the process soon, thanx

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4495/partsc.jpg
...just ignore the creepy statuette (looks even creepier w/the top hat you can't see) Cheesy


You will definitely have to remove the engine from the frame to replace the rings because there is no way to get the cylinder off with engine in frame.
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Stimpy - FSO
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Re: advice pls :on new rings, valve seals & pl
Reply #2 - 07/06/09 at 19:16:29
 
You will definitely have to remove the engine from the frame

Oh yeah, that's gonna be fun  Cool  Hope all is in good shape after 12 years
of leaving the factory (rust, frozen bolts, etc) wish me luck; pics soon right here
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Re: advice pls :on new rings, valve seals & plug
Reply #3 - 07/06/09 at 19:27:33
 
quick and easy method for removing the engine from the frame...
no, no, put away the shotgun.

remove all bolts, brackets, front footpegs, and wiring (from the engine).

lay a pad on the grass, roll the bike over and lay it down on the pad.
wiggle the engine free of the frame,
sit it up,
pick it up and put it (where's your mind, ok not there too crowded) where you can work on it.
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Stimpy - FSO
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Re: OMG what a difference: new rings, valve job
Reply #4 - 07/20/09 at 11:24:15
 
DONE  Wink

...as I was telling you


I'm finally done w/repairing my engine and the
overall feel, performance, mpg's, oil consumption
and torque differences are JUST BRUTAL.

--------------------------------------------------------

- On top you can see the parts I replaced:
mainly valve seals, plug leak and rings

--------------------------------------------------------

- But the real magic I think was in manually redoing
the valve seats . This I did by removing all the
carbon/mineral deposits off the valves using a wire
brush wheel and polishing them afterwards; the exhaust
valves were in terrible shape and did not seat properly (leaked).

Then, completely old-school, by using 3 different levels mineral
grinding/polishing compounds (in paste form, from sandy to fine),
some gasoline, a hammer, a rubber gas hose and a drill I spent
a good hour working on each valve until I re-did each valve seat
perfectly, re-assembled and leak-tested upside down w/gas, worked!

I did this by connecting each valve with a hard rubber hose to a drill
and spinning and pulling in to place while there was mineral paste in
there, then cleaning w/gas, hammering into place and repeating again
and again until perfect.

--------------------------------------------------------

- I replaced the rings (might as well) and all head seals
& leaky head rubber plug.

--------------------------------------------------------

- The break-in method I used was the following, and it worked great!
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/engnbrkn.htm

--------------------------------------------------------

- Because of extreme heat caused by high friction due to new rings, the
first oil change (motul 20-50w) after 30 miles showed disgusting
scorched, toasted, watery, jet black oil full of aluminum particles and
my magnetic plug and filter was covered with a fine iron "paste".

The second oil change after a 150 mile road trip showed almost
the same minus the amount and size of metal particles.  The Third,
and last, oil change I will do in 300-500 miles.

The savage oil filter IS washable a couple of times with a special
method, pioneered by yours truly, that consists of rinsing, shaking
and spining the filter flat inside a glass jar w/some gasoline no less
than 3 times and then drying it w/ a hair dryer through the hole until
the smoke stops, do it out doors!  Cheesy  if done properly, filter paper
will turn back to brownish yellow.

--------------------------------------------------------

- The difference in performance:
well, the oil consumption completely ceased and mpg's increased
by at least 1/3, torque is now comparable to a 2009 S40 and top
speed went up by at least 10 miles to about 85 mph w/o forcing
the engine, I will test true top speed as soon as rings finish breaking in,
and black smoke while reving- downhas completely disappeared, yay!
omg I'm so happy and pleased I could do this myself.


So that's that folks, any questions let me know.
(sorry about the crappy cel-phone pics)
thanks all
C'ya!  

   
























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« Last Edit: 07/20/09 at 13:23:58 by Stimpy - FSO »  

Recently sold 97'savage (change of residence) - looking to buy another - just bought a temp, a great SR125 called 'methadone'
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engine repair WALKTHROUGH
Reply #5 - 07/21/09 at 11:06:37
 
Hi all, here is a short walkthrough covering all the
basics that you'll need to get this job done yourself:


- Understanding what you are about to do and savage mechanical basics
- removing engine from frame
- opening top end
- opening side covers
- repair your problems
- putting everything back together correctly
- firing up successfully
- breaking in engine


* All Savage diagrams here:
http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module/Main/TypeID/26/Type/Motorcycle/Mak...

** Public savage manual.pdf here:
http://www.mininova.org/search/?search=savage+service+manual+pdf&cat=0

*** to download manual use bitlord 1.1 (adware & virus free)
http://www.bitlord.com/BitLord_1.01.exe


|| Allright, let's start ||


I) golden rule #1 : the right tool for the right job
you'll need to have a bunch of tools that should not be
replace for other tools that "might" work, you'll just end
up ruining your parts and striping your bolts if you do.
All your tools will cost less than an hour or two of the cost
of a "professional" mechanic and they are yours to keep  Wink


you'll need:

- some form of good center stand or bikejack since you must remove sidestand
- 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm & 17mm sockets AND wrenches
- 18mm, for spark plug & a 23mm (I think)  for rear wheel axl
- also you'll need a 1 1/4" socket for your front sprocket  
- a metal tube to torque the socket wrench when needed
- large "C" clamp for valve/spring removal
- Other assorted tools (screwdrivers, pliers, hammer,
rubber mallet, tape, zipties, vicegrips, etc)
- a wire brush wheel, a drill and mineral grinding paste
(or new valves, your choice)
- hi-temp silicone

--------------------------------------------

II) Time, disposable latex gloves, a clean space and some order
You'll need some space to work in, order for all your parts,
mark all your screws and bolts (they must go back in precise
order) and expect this to be maybe a weeklong job @ 3hrs/day

---------------------------------------------
|| PART 1 : cracking engine open ||
---------------------------------------------

1) Go!  

Run engine and completely drain oil while hot, move bike side to side
to get all oil out  (you'll need a 17mm wrench + a 3qt. oil pan)

---------------------------------------------

2) remove:

- seat
- side covers
- gas tank
- battery + battery box
- engine chrome covers
- front footpegs, gear lever & exhaust guard
- exhaust
- front & rear band guards
- loosen/remove band
- loosen gas cable, clutch cable & decompression cable  
- remove carb (might as well open it and clean it; polish that slider!)
- detach all electrical cables from engine

---------------------------------------------

3) remove engine, it is held in frame 3 ways:

- it "hangs" from top of frame
- it is held at rear by "battery box" structure
- it is held at front/bottom by footstand structure + one more at bottom

* Note:  engine has a "belly" and once lose must be removed
first to the side (left is best) and then pulled up/away from frame,
not as hard as it looks but it's heavier than it looks; reverse to install.

---------------------------------------------

4) having fun yet?  Cheesy

place and secure engine at workbench and get some
cardboard and a sharpee, draw a pattern of and number
all bolts you are about to remove from top end, you
will remove all but 2 of them, make a small hole in
cardboard next to each number for each bolt and
remove them.

* the 2 bolts that stay are the one next to the breathing
tube from engine (see photo i took, the black bolt) and
the one next to the front valve cover that holds the
decompression lever in place, got it?

Then gently, sorda, hit the top end w/rubber mallet or use
flat head screw driver to get lid off, taa da! and there is it,
behold!  the freaking leaky rubber plug   Tongue  ...mocking you

---------------------------------------------

5)
clean all parts w/cotton rags and drain the little valve oil tub
that sits on top, you'll need to scrape old seal w/razorblade.

Get ready to open right side engine cover to loosen timing chain
guides and tensioner, do the cardboard thing again, and remove
all 8mm bolts and place in marked cardboard, hit cover w/rubber
mallet, watch for oil ...remove bottom large bolt that comes from
oil filter and clean since crap sometimes gets trapped there.
   
Loosen automatic chain tensioner at both points,
watch out for that spring!

---------------------------------------------

6)
you MUST mark your timing exactly IF you want to avoid
opening the other side cover as well, TDC,  there are 2 marks on
the side of the push rod next to the chain and top sprocket, see them?

Them must lay flat / horizontal to case and the number
"24" from the chain sprocket must be on top.

After you marked the EXACT position of sprocket and tensed chain
you can now disassemble the top sprocket, remove both bolts and
"C" washer to loosen sprocket and remove camshaft and let go of
the chain  ...the rear chain guide is secured by a bolt on the side
of top case, see it?  the other chain guide does NOT come off
until next segment of top engine is free.
 
---------------------------------------------

7) remove 2 upsidedown bolts at front and rear of head,
under the ports, see them? now, remove the 4 large head nuts
to free the combustion chamber head cover (where your valves
are),one of the nuts is under the darn rubber head plug, do this
in "X" sequence and then hit head with rubber mallet, pull
...ta daa!  and there is the savage's heart (piston)


...Running out of space, part 2 in next page.
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« Last Edit: 07/24/09 at 02:12:46 by Stimpy - FSO »  

Recently sold 97'savage (change of residence) - looking to buy another - just bought a temp, a great SR125 called 'methadone'
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Re: OMG what a difference! new rings+valves (w/pic
Reply #6 - 07/24/09 at 02:11:26
 
---------------------------------------------
|| PART 2 : making the repairs ||
---------------------------------------------

So you now have your engine apart, great!
At this point there is a large number of preventive
and corrective repairs one can do to take advantage
of the circumstances, these include: new clutch, giving new life
to the timing chain tensor, fixing leaks, cleaning your oil pump
mesh, replacing rings, valves, valve seals, cam chain, camshaft,
rockers, bore the exhaust port, etc. And most of these repairs consist
basically on removing the damaged part and replacing it with a new
one, how easy is that?!  Just put everything back together EXACTLY.

In this walkthrough we'll mainly focus on 3 repairs:
valve job, installing new rings and plug leak.

---------------------------------------------

8) Valves  You have 2 options: replace or repair.
In case your valves are damaged, molten or misshapen
(oval or bent) the you just have 1 option, replace part;
and in case your valves are not damaged, then you can
clean and rebuild the valve seat. In my case I cleaned,
redid the valve seat, replaced the valve seal and lubed.

- Step 1: disassemble
there are a number of ways to do this, most people use
a large "C" clamp and a socket (or 2 long/thin ones),
others use "big mouth" vice grips, others use a speciality
valve-removal tool which is what i did, the trick is to compress
the valve spring long enough so you can take the *cotters that
hold the spring retainer in place, same goes for assembly.
(*be careful, those suckers can FLY!)
 
There are 2 pairs if valves, intake and exhaust, they are
different and they are marked but DO NOT MIX SIDES,
put all back where it came from.

Once you get all 4 valves free you will clean them with a
rotating metal wire wheel, it's the only way unless you have
a ultrasonic jewelry cleaner or acid bath, claean them well
until you remove all carbon and metal/mineral deposits stuck there,
SPECIALLY the exhaust valves, the metal the valves are made of is
ridiculously hard and it's hard to damage, just don't press your luck.
DO NOT touch the valve seat, you need that to stay sharp.  
Do not remove carbon deposits on chamber dome, it need to be there,
remove only large mineral deposits (grain-like crap).  


- Step 2:
rebuild valve seat
Once clean you can now start redoing your valve seats. There is
special shop equipment and shops that will grind your valves at
exactly 45, I don't have that so I did it manually. You will need
some hardish rubber gas line, a drill, some mineral grinding-stone
paste, some gas and a couple of small metal hose clamps (the kind
you make tight w/screwdriver). IF you don't have this grinding stone
paste, I guess you could make your own with a grinding stone, a
hammer and some mechanic's grease; mash it up good, make 2 kinds:
sandy and fine, then mix w/grease, instant grinding paste!    


Start w/both exhaust valves then test, there is a very goos chance
your intake valves are fine.  Get valve in to place and attach rubber
hose at end and tighten somehow, the attach other end to drill
somehow and tighten, place some paste (sandy) in mouth and
valve edge, pull hose and spin drill one way, then the other way,
re-apply paste, repeat , then hit valve from under side w/hammer to
seat valve, repeat.

Brush area w/gasoline that will act as lube for the grinding stone. Do
this a few more times w/drill then stop using drill completely and you
will continue by hand asi if trying to make fire with a stick. Then start
again w/fine paste, do everything again, do not abuse drill, hammer a lot.

The SOUND will tell you when you are done, after completely cleaning
the area w/gas, let dry and spin valve by hand while pulling, it should
sound like both metal sides are having a rough tine w/each other, the
valve should get stuck and refuse to spin.  

- Step 3: rebuild, replace valve seal & test for leaks
When you think you are done, reassemble all 4 valves the way you
found them, remember to replace rubber valve gasket seal things
w/new ones ($2 ea.), place old spark plug in hole (tightish) and place
whole thing upside down and fill w/gas, watch for leaks in both ports, if
it does not leak within a minute, you are done. Lube all w/heaviest oil
possible, I used 90w transmission oil.

---------------------------------------------

9) New rings
Hit w/rubber mallet/pull up mid-top end cylinder section to expose
piston, place cotton rags or plastic in engine hole to keep dirt out.

Check cylinder walls for damage (scratches) or glazing (blueish,
overheated, glass-like finish). Check piston for damage, you can only
replace rings IF both piston and cylinder walls permit, specially piston.
If piston has no damage and old rings come out easily then you are in
luck(see clymer manual for removal instructions, rings are very fragil!)  
remove piston from engine by removing ONE of the o-ring tensioner
thingies that hold the inside rod in place, then slide rod through there
and piston is now free.

Clean but DO NOT remove carbon deposits on piston top, you need it,
remove only excess crap (see manual).  
   
Take cylinder head and piston an place in table, insert new #1 ring
in cylinder alone and push down EVENLY w/the help of your piston,
once inside you must measure your wear limits (in clymer manual).

Now test ring #2 (they are marked), if all is within limits (think heat
expansion) then you can install new rings, learn how to correctly install
bottom "oil guard" rings and top rings, see manual. Position all 4 rings
at 3 o"clock, 9 o'clock, 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock respectively to
minimize oil/exhaust gas/chamber/crank case contamination.

Lube well cylinder walls with thick oil (I used 90w oil), connect piston
w/engine (lube), piston has an arrow on top, this arrow must point at
front of engine, put new engine head gasket in place,carefully
assemble cylinder head and manually press rings one by one as piston
goes back into cylinder.
 

Place next head gasket into place, connect top of chamber and tighten
head with the 4 large nuts torqueing in "X" pattern, don't forget
the 2 extra side screws (upside down, at front and rear of head)
And don't forget to place front timing chain slider guide into place
before closing head.

---------------------------------------------

10) World famous savage plug leak
There are about a million threads on this, follow either one,
basically GET A NEW PLUG and after assembling head, clean
area: no grease, no old silicone, no nothing (use gas and wire
brush wheel if you wish) use silicon to install new plug (see
before/after picture I took) and let area dry as log as you can,
maybe 48hrs if possible.  Also use extra silicone patch under plug
w/finger, work in ventilated space, that thing is nasty.


-----------------------------------------------
|| PART 3 : putting bike back together ||
-----------------------------------------------


12) Reverse whole process, use logic, use the manual,
any questions let me know.


I did not hone the cylinder, I decided to use heavy oil on cylinder walls
and other parts before assembly and I used this method (see under) to
break-in rings and hone walls at the same time, it worked.
The theory is to run and overheat the engine for a while under a
controlled environment, so the rings expand and scratch the cylinder
walls a bit and the rings break-in against it, then change the oil, repeat.
All this to insure future compression and prevent glazing.  
This is the break-in method I used:
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/engnbrkn.htm


Random tips:

Use good hi-temp silicone.
Recharge battery at low amps (2A) for 8 hrs, control acid levels.
Use torque meter or logic/feel, better a bit lose than a broken bolt.
Lube EVERYTHING, even bolts and nuts before assembly.
Use "X" pattern to tighten all.
Most bolts and nuts still go 1/3 more turn after they get hard
Replace all head gaskets w/new ones.
Side covers may be "siliconed" carefully (watch the oil veins).
Better too little silicone than too much close to inside areas.
Good time to check/adjust decompression valve thing.
Good time to grease all control-cables, use 2 syringes, one w/oil
and one w/gasoline, a few squirts of gas after the oil help the oil
slide until end of cable.  
A good time to check/grease your gear lever mechanism.
Timing must match w/timing chain marks & TDC piston.
Be clean, be organized, be patient, have fun.

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

You're done!


**Anyone may correct, advice, detail and/or
complement all or any part of this walkthrough.
Good luck too all.
C'ya

Richard P.
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Re: omg! new rings+valves+plug (w/pics + walkthrou
Reply #7 - 06/18/17 at 09:51:20
 
Is there anyway you could reupload these images? The walkthrough seems super helpful, but having those pics would alleviate a lot of my engine rebuilding fear. Thanks!
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Re: omg! new rings+valves+plug (w/pics + walkthrou
Reply #8 - 06/19/17 at 04:11:15
 
Robb+:

Stimpy hasn't been on this forum in more than 3 years.......he likely will never see your request and is even less likely to get the photos back on the forum.  A lot of the information on this forum gets lost as the format changes on the photo hosting sites like Photobucket, TinyPic, etc.
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