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Starting and running issues (Read 347 times)
David M Smith
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Starting and running issues
06/24/09 at 08:32:52
 
Hey again. I feel bad always asking questions and not being able to answer many. But I have only had my Savage for about a year. I'm slowly learning and hopefully soon I will be able to help others a little more.
 Anyway here are my story, problems and the symptoms:

 Last year I bought my 87 Savage. The tank was a little rusted as far as I could see and the outside around the fuel cap was damaged I assume do to fuel leakage or spilllage. I had the tank painted and I recoated the inside. I cleaned and refitted the petcock. After I connected everything back up it started right up. I was proud of myself lol. But then a few days later it just didn't want to start. I checked and noticed the battery was low and charged it.t didn't want to keep a charge of more than about 50% overnight. So I replaced the battery with a new sealed one. It started turning over much faster and better but still didn't start. I ended up taking it to a mechanic to check out. He said he gave it a general tune up and replaced the plugs, changed the oil, checked the breaks and cleaned out the carb bowl which he said was fairly clean.
 For about 3 weeks I rode it around for short distances with not much trouble. I did notice it seemed to surge once and a while at 40-60mph cruising but nothing bad. So last weekend I took it out for my first medium distance ride which "would have" been about an 1-2 hour ride at average 55mph. After about 20 minutes of cruising I down shifted to a stop on a country road and it shut down. It didn't sputter or cough at all. It just shut down at the stop. I was a little worried but it started right back up without much trouble. I road another 10 minutes and it shut down again at another stop. This time it wouldn't start back up. I checked everything I could with no tools. (yes I know I need a tool kit). I noticed the battery terminals were hot and the cables seemed loose. However I can't be certain whether they were hot from a problem with the loose cables or other electrical problem or just from turning it over while trying to restart.
 I ended up calling family and pushing the bike about 2 miles into the closest town. Let it sit under a shade tree for about 4 hours and then came back and tried to restart. It REALLY tried but didn't catch. Yesterday I checked what I could with my tools at home. First I wanted to check the carb bowl so i went to drain it. Placed the petcock on FUEL which I'm fairly certain is equivalent to off on the vacuum type petcocks.(FUEL/PRI/RES) Then I unscrewed the carb drain screw. . . I'm guessing a pint came out and didn't seem to want to stop. I'm guessing this isn't normal! I tried both the RES and PRI settings and it kept coming. But I was at least happy it was flowing and didn't seem to be dirty. So I left it alone for now.
 I went back to that loose negative battery terminal. I went to unscrew it and it didn't seem to want to come off. Apparently it had been cross threaded so well that I ended up breaking off the screw. . Luckily I have a brother who runs a machine shop and this morning he fixed it up for me. Tonight I will reattach the battery and secure those terminals and see what happens.
 However with these 2 items and the tests I've done I still don't know what my issues could be or if one or both of those could cause my problems. Below are my personal ideas.

- Fouled plug due to "full on" petcock?
- Float issues due to "full on" petcock?
- Bad fuel/air mix due to battery connection possibly causing firing or timing problems?

Help! Any other ideas are welcome and thanks for you wisdom!
Dave

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Skid Mark
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #1 - 06/24/09 at 15:45:33
 
Do a process of elimination.
Get the battery right, and see if problem persists.
If it still persists I'd look at the fuel valve ( sounds better than pet thingy). It's vaccuum opertated and there may be issues with the vac line or diaphram. Or there coild be crud in it.  It seems the easy fix for vac issues  is replacing with a Raptor pet thingy as it eliminates the vaccuum actuation. You just have to remember to turn it off when stopped.
Hopeful it will be one of these 2 thing, otherwise you may have carb problems.
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #2 - 06/24/09 at 16:56:46
 
What did you use to clean out the inside of the tank, and what did you coat it with?
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David M Smith
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #3 - 06/25/09 at 05:15:59
 
I used a KBS small tank 3 part coating kit.

http://www.kbs-coatings.com/Auto-Fuel-Tank-Sealer-Kit_p_7-34.html

UPDATE: OK last night I got my battery back and reinstalled it fine. Tighter connections. No problem. I tried to start it and it had a lot of trouble but it did start with a lot of throttle. It would get going with the choke all the way in but if I tried to pull it out to half or full it died. I could keep it going but only giving it a lot of throttle. If I let it try and drop down to idle speed it stopped. It also seemed to be putting out a little black smoke, but not a lot. I checked the oil and it didn't look or smell like fuel, but I'm a novice there so I may just not know exactly where to look or what I'm looking for. I also re-checked my petcock settings and once again the gas won't stop flowing no matter what setting it's on. I checked the air filter and compartment and it didn't seem to have a heavy fuel smell so it looked good.
 Any ideas?
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Yonuh Adisi FSO
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #4 - 06/25/09 at 16:39:32
 
You're flooding out, might want to change out the petcock, sounds like it's boogered.
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #5 - 06/26/09 at 20:59:24
 
Some of this sounds awfully familiar. See Trouble Diagnosing Stutter,  http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1245782493/0#12. Not that I have an answer there, but some more talk.
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David M Smith
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #6 - 06/29/09 at 06:11:36
 
 Well here is another update. Last Wednesday I opened up the carb bowl and the pilot jet was lying in the bowl. So I tried to screw it back in with the carb still attached. That night it started and ran better than it had since I've had it. The next day I was riding in town and stupid me was apparently running on Reserve from the testing the day before. I ran it totally out of gas. Went and got gas, tried to start it back up and no luck.
 Got it home, took off the carb bowl again and it was loose again. I don't think I had it in there correctly the first time since I was trying to fudge it and screw it in upside down without removing the carb. So I decided I just needed to take the whole thing off and give it a thorough cleaning and check everything.
 I have run into one possible issue that I want to get a second visual opinion on though before putting it all back together. It looks to me like there may be a small chunk of something in one of the tubes but I can't tell because it's at one of the turns in the tube. I blew some compressed air in there and when on most of the tubes it seems to come straight out easily on the other end, the air going through this tube seems to be a little "rough" coming out the other end. Not sure if this may just be because of the turns in the line. The problem is if there IS something lodged in there, how to get it out safely. If it's a chuck of the tank sealer it's hardened to a tough little piece of metal.

 Otherwise the carb looks clean. Diaphragms look good. Battery is good, Plug is good. Seems to turn over well. Air filter is clean and getting no backup of fuel. The non-stop petcock will need to be checked out I'm sure. trying to decide what to do there.
 If there is no chunk in there then I will need to check into other possibilities for the problems.

Thanks
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #7 - 06/29/09 at 08:23:55
 
I'm no mechanic but it sounds similar to problems I was having with flooding.  I haven't replaced my petcock yet as I put some seafoam in it to clean it out and now my petcock shuts off when on fuel, it didn't before.  As far as cleaning the hole out you might try a piece of wire from a wire brush.  Also, have you checked to make sure the float is at the right height?  That was part of my problem too.
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #8 - 07/01/09 at 08:53:55
 
On top of the petcock, inside the tank, there is a narrow tall screen which is the only stock fuel filter on the Savage/S40.  Is that screen in place?  If so, what does it look like?  If torn or rusty looking, your problem likely stems from the rusted tank and dirty gas not flowing well.
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #9 - 07/01/09 at 09:42:24
 
You have diagnosed the petcock as a problem.  Now you have to fix it.
Forget the carb and battery, and fix the petcock.
Then, you can correct any other problems.  The petcock problem will mess up any further diagnoses of any other problems.
So fix that one first.  
Options are to replace with new, convert to manual, or replace with alternative (Yamaha Raptor 660 manual petcock.  Convert is cheapest but most difficult, Raptor is easiest, stock replacement is easy but expensive.
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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David M Smith
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #10 - 07/01/09 at 09:49:48
 
Answer to last question and another update.

 When I re-sealed the tank during the winter I took the screen filter off and thoroughly cleaned it. I also put in an in line fuel filter about a month ago between the thingy and the carb.

 I dropped the carb off last night with an auto instructor who is taking a look at the area where I thought I may have seen an obstruction. However the more I think about it the more I think there probably isn't a piece in there large enough to cause such an obstruction.
 If he says it's fine and clean, then my next step before putting it all back together for further testing will be to replace that petcock. However I did check the float height and it seemed to be about 2.5 mm too high. I made an adjustment down from 30.5 to about 28. Could this possibly have anything to do with the petcock vacuum failing?

Thanks
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #11 - 07/01/09 at 10:14:50
 
Nope,...
The petcock is a vacuum operated unit.  Failure comes from the vac diaphragm in the petcock either tearing and leaking, creating a flooding situation, or not getting vacuum, creating a starvation.
Have you checked the vac line?.... There should be absolutely zero gas in it.  None at all!... If there is gas there, your petcock diaphragm is torn.  The vac line is the one on the right side of the carb with a spring covering it.
If there is no gas there whatsoever, you are not getting vacuum up to the petcock,.. replace the vac line and clamp it securely at both ends...
My guess, with fuel flowing in all postions, is the diaphragm is torn.
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David M Smith
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #12 - 07/01/09 at 10:33:28
 
 So I'm guessing instead of opening up the petcock and checking I'm better off finding a Raptor and just going with it? If I go that route is it something I can just grab used? I see them on Ebay and other sites used. Since there aren't any real screwy parts inside the Raptor I'm guessing that as long as the used one is clean there shouldn't be any problems?

Thanks
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #13 - 07/01/09 at 10:39:03
 
A used one may weep a bit, from old rubber, but if you can save a good amount... New seals are $4 to $6...
New is of course better.  $20 + shipping, probably $30 total
http://www.ronayers.com/browseparts.cfm?SearchString=5LP-24500-01-00&adv=5&kw...
The Raptor is an easy bolt on fix.  You will have to cap off the vac line at the carb.  I put a screw in it.... rubber caps will rot away every couple of months and cause a vacuum leak.
As a bonus,... going to the Raptor makes tank removal much easier too.  No more wiggle jiggle... Grin
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David M Smith
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Re: Starting and running issues
Reply #14 - 07/01/09 at 10:48:16
 
 Awesome thanks. I did have a very small very slow leak when i put the original petcock back on after the tank seal. I just used a tiny amount of liquid gasket and it sealed right up. Just put a little on my finger and actually wiped a thin layer on there. Probably do the same on the Raptor.
I'll see what the guy says about the carb. Put it all back together. Replace the petcock and see what happens.

Thanks again everyone for the ideas and advice. For someone that knows almost nothing about engines it's a great thing to be able to go at it and have people to back you up on those little questions. I'm learning things here and on my bike that will benefit me for a long time!
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