Arthur wrote on 06/16/09 at 21:15:49:You said the tests are biased, and that suggests deceit.
Deceit is both deliberate and significant. Bias can be accidental and/or insignificant.
Quote:Do you suppose the testing engineers would be unaware that their tests were biased? And if they were aware, it would have been deceitful of them to knowingly present biased results as fact.
It's possible they didn't consider the oil, as the test is primarily for automotive and industrial air filters, only a small percentage of which are oiled. It's possible they know the effect but consider it insignificant. It's possible they pre-blew the filter with filtered air to lessen the effect, or devised some unspecified way to compensate for it. We don't know. All scientific experiments contain SOME amount of bias BTW. The engineers drew a line somewhere that probably does not affect the vast majority of their tests but I think may be significant for oiled filters on motorcycles.
Quote:How do you know that oil is "blown off" the filter? Do you think KN and other oiled filter designers would design filters which; when used according to instructions; allowed oil to be vacuumed into your engine, and risk having the public find this out? How do you know that oil and dust are condensed and passed through the filter? Your argument that the oil leaves the filter because you can smell it, is invalid without supporting data.
Naw, it's valid. Anything that you smell off a filter is a collection of molecules that have evaporated off of it and gone up your nose. As far as the public perception of oil going into the engine (ruined sensors and whatnot) the filter manufacturer can always claim over-oiling. They probably formulate the oil sticky enough so that it would take a severe over-oiling to foul any sensors.
Quote:Filter oil is made up of various chemistries, so if you are smelling something, it may be a other added chemistry that may be harmless to an engine, and not "airborne oil droplets". The other chemistries may be vaporizing, leaving the oil on the filter. There is no way for your nose to know what it is smelling, unless you have test data analyzing the vapors, or test data analyzing the chemistry of what the testing equipment collected. I used to use KN filters on my cars and bikes, and I never saw any evidence of oil in the carb mouth or anywhere else. However, perhaps I did not read the test results I posted carefully enough, so if there are test results describing oil passing through the filter or condensing with dust and passing through, please correct me and you will have my apologies.
For purposes of the test, who cares about the chemical makeup of the molecules that evaporate off the filter? Whether they are the heaviest paraffins, olefins, asphalt, or lower flash point components considered "oils" or the lightest aromatics like butane, they all have mass and therefore don't contribute to the weight of the filter after the test.
Your requests for the chemical analysis of the vapors and that the condensed vapors be considered, isolated from the dust and weighed in a lab, are impossible red herrings. I don't need to provide this (likely non-existent) lab data to validate a phenomenon you know darn well is occurring. I don't expect or want an apology, and I'll understand if it just isn't your style to say "Oh yeah, thanks" when someone points out something you didn't notice at first, but that might refine your thinking on a subject.
Quote:Foam filters are used on off-road vehicles because any filter will clog quickly when off roading in dusty areas. I've done a great deal of off roading and the reason for the foam filters is because when you stop for a break, you can quickly remove the clogged foam filter, wash it with the water and detergent or bar of soap you brought along, ring it out and oil soak it again. I've had to do this several times a day, off roading in the desert. If you also use that vehicle for street use, you then remove the foam filter and re install the factory unit. The foam unit is a compromise for that very reason. It does not filter as well as a paper unit, but unless you want to bring along a box of spare filters, you must use the washable foam unit.
Washing filters on the fly.. this is good info I hadn't considered, thanks. Ahh, my haunches are getting meatier by the day. Maybe I will try this idea on my dualsport bike, filters $45 apiece!
Quote:I did not suggest that KN and foam filters are "crap".
Fine, "sub-standard," potato poTAH-to.. if neglecting the washable/convenience factor of course.
Oldfeller, your herd analogy is hilarious. No worries though, this calf doesn't mind being uh, poked with a cattle prod so long as it directs me to the feed trough so I can get some more meat on me bones. I'm still curious about what Gort thinks about your Nu-Foam filters for street use.. thick fiberous filter using gear oil not harmful if passed through a Savage carb and engine. Probably even less important with a round slide carb (?)