SuzukiSavage.com - Tuning intake and exhaust

marshall13

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #30 - 05/18/09 at 09:30:56

bill67 wrote on 05/18/09 at 08:46:54:

Stock s40 comes with a tuned intake and exhaust,Suzuki does as good as the other motorcycle companies in doing that.

but the manufacturers have to meet all kinds of criteria that force them to compromise on the "tuning" of the intake and outlet planes... the object of this exercise isnt to say "wow, what crap suzi markets", it's more to find a combo that maximizes available power, and gives good ridability... one could max out redline power easily(just use a 63 inch long open 1 3/4 inch pipe, a velocity stack, and a 91 dr650 cam, and then jet accordingly), but the ridability would be terrible...it would give a very narrow powerband, and only be suitable for high rev use... that would cut service life down drastically...it would be just as easy to tune it to run in any narrow band, the real challenge is to wring as much usable power as possible across the rev range....

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diamond jim

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #31 - 05/18/09 at 10:11:06

verslagen1 wrote on 05/18/09 at 09:11:38:

the Hartman muf mod is worth a read.

So D'Jim, when you going to the Dyno?

Here in a few minutes. Actually I'm running by the shop there to see if he's got a 55 polit with no bleed holes or something similar. He's the guy that used to be a big time biker I mentioned about several weeks ago that was in his car and got ran over buy a city garbage truck maybe 10 years ago. Yep, ca-ching $$$. So he used the money to build a bike shop and he specializes in performance tuning. Of course he does 90% harleys. Money is super tight right now seeing as I am unexpectedly on a 1/5th schedule this summer. The summer schedule is 10 weeks. That means I work one day per week. The time off of is nice but the hit in the pocketbook is a killer. If he's not too outrageous $$$ on his dyno runs, I'll see if I can come up with the $$$ without the wife getting ill. The guy I met on the VTX, the one that forgot his kickstand was done and couldn't figure out why his bike wouldn't start- he's a local cop and he's the one who told me about the shop. He said they get calls alot for that road cause bikers get work done and when they leave the shop, well, they want to see what they got for all that money they spent.

I'll see what the guy charges. Funny, I was just riding and experimenting with the pipe butterfly. When I close it the bike feels more like stock. When I open it up it's a different story at pretty much across the rpm band. When I come up to Deals Gap I'll let you guys ride it and see for yourselves.

Ditto on what Marshall replied above. I'm having a total blast experimenting and discovering what this bike can do. It's like a puzzle. The rewards are there. You just got to fit the pieces together right. I'm a mighty happy camper right now. Suzuki did a very good job on this bike. But I dig the heck out of talking about the meat and gravy of the performance of this bike and the fabbing, building and testing that goes with discovering it.

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marshall13

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #32 - 05/18/09 at 10:54:50

might want to check some 2 stroke exhaust theory too, Jim... i have a feeling that much of modern muffler sizing is related to expansion chamber sizing... proper dimensioning would simulate a longer pipe of the proper cross sectional area, as well as reducing the pressure differential at the outlet(while maintaining the rarification on the trailing edge of the pressure wave), thus reducing noise in a less performance depleting manner.... yep, these beasties are almost ideal test-beds....

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28891 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Tuning intake and exhaust Reply #33 - 05/18/09 at 11:28:27 If the guy is doing that for the harley's, he might be interested in your mod's so he do the same for them. Kinda win-win situation, you do some experimentin' and he sells it to who ever.
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LANCER

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #34 - 05/18/09 at 13:59:05

verslagen1 wrote on 05/18/09 at 11:28:27:

If the guy is doing that for the harley's, he might be interested in your mod's so he do the same for them. Kinda win-win situation, you do some experimentin' and he sells it to who ever.

If he has been doing performance stuff for years then he has probably been down that road a number of times already. Keep in mind that the Savage is pretty much the same as one cyl on a HD, thats why so many like the HD mufflers...they work for us. But it never hurts to talk to the guy since sharing info is how stuff gets better.

By the way, if anyone wants to get into some real practical stuff on header & exhaust design then go to www.headersbyed.com, he has been making systems and parts for pro racers and retail since the early 60's...the dude know's his stuff.
He use to have his data sheets on his old website but they are building a new one and I have not seen them yet on the new site version. He sells a really nice info and parts package that has tons of tech info in it and is well worth the $$ if you are into learning all you can on exhaust system design.

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diamond jim

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #35 - 05/18/09 at 14:27:03

I'll look for Ed's stuff.

The shop is called Rod's Performance Shop. He siad he'd dyno and do the gas analyzer to let me know if I need to do some more jetting work for $55. Him and his old mechanic, who when I walked in was pulling a drill with one of the longest drill bits I've ever seen, out of the back of a muffler on harley that raised on one of their three lifts, seem to develop a quick fondness of the little thumper. "I haven't seen a single cylinder bike in year", the old guy said. Rod liked the combo bar end turns/mirrors and the exhaust butterfly mod. It was pretty cool. At first I thought I sensed the 'ol 'it ain't a harley' vibe but that impression turned out to be wrong. However, of a little concern, was that I brought in the stock pilot jet to show him to see if he had a #55 with no bleed holes. Although he had 3 huge tackle boxes worth of jets, he couldn't find nor recalled ever having any that looked like the stock pilot jet. He had a yamaha V-star 1100 carb there all gutted out. Jets are different on it too. Also, no main jets in the style we need.

I'll be in Huntsville the rest of this week. Mom is having knee surgery tomorrow so I'll be staying with her. Next week I'll see if I can do it.

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LANCER

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #36 - 05/18/09 at 19:18:34

Sounds like you may be able to develope a good relationship with the guys. Independent shops usually have better attitudes toward out of the ordinary bikes. There is a small independent shop close by me, a one horse shop all the way, the owner is John and he is a good guy. He specializes in older HD's but will take in an model HD...does not work on foriegn stuff directly but will crank up the dyno when I need to.

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diamond jim

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #37 - 05/18/09 at 19:49:39

That sure sounds a lot like what I'm seeing here.

I found his website. It looks fairly new.
http://www.rodsperformance.com/

I did a quick search and found in a forum where a guy rode 4 hours just to get a tune at Rod's. Check out this link- go down to the last 3 posts of the thread.
http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/twin-cam-engine-mods/141225-103-blueprint-r...

Some other post.
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=36485.0

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diamond jim

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #38 - 05/19/09 at 13:31:34

Marshall, your 1/8 of a V8 logic works great using the Mustang's 4.6 liter V8 although the displacement is a little smaller.

Mustang GT
35 cubic inch/ 575 cc single cylinder
90.2 mm bore/ 90.0 mm stroke
300 hp total/ 37.5 hp per cylinder
320 ft lb total / 40 ft lb per cylinder

Suzuki LS650
40 cubic inch/ 650 cc single cylinder
94.0 mm bore/ 94.0 mm stroke
30 hp/ 33 ft lb

I'm thinking the LS650 can be tuned to similar numbers of a single cylinder on the Mustang engine (37.5 hp/ 40 ft lb) via intake tuning, properly jetting the stock carb and tuning the exhaust. Then you'd likely hit a ceiling that would require more aggressive mods including performance cam and carb for any additional gains.

Anyone got any dyno run info on a LS650 with Lancer's perf cam and carb?

Unless I'm reading this chart below totally wrong, this shows that Jason's '96 LS650 with simple carb rejetting and a supertrapp registered an additional 4.25hp, or about a 15% difference. That's like an additional 45hp for a stock '09 Mustang GT. Not bad IMO. It also smoothed out the power curve as well. Imagine what this setup + improvements to the intake would show.

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« Last Edit: 05/19/09 at 16:17:13 by diamond jim »

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marshall13

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #39 - 05/19/09 at 21:36:05

well, good and bad news for you... the bad is, you cant match the torque figure without a higher CR, or running fuel and a CDI... the torque, being determined by averaging the cylinder pressure through the power stroke, multiplying that by the area of the piston crown, then multiplying by the stroke... as you're looking for a 20% increase, it aint happening just by increasing packing efficiency... the good news? the HP figure is very doable, im willing to bet your ride peaks at about 40... Wink

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diamond jim

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Re: Tuning intake and exhaust
Reply #40 - 05/20/09 at 13:47:08

I understood about half of what you just wrote! Gives me more to research and learn. But there is definitely a noticeable power gain. Don't know if it's quite up to 40hp yet. Possibly with the dyno & exhaust analyzer I'll be able to get the carb spot on and approach that number.

Here's where my thinking is right now.

1. Put the pod filter and sporty muff on last fall and followed general carb tuning guidelines. It felt like there was a little loss in low end torque. mid range improved. (evidence suggests I lost intake runner length with no airbox)

2. I put the new pipe on. The pipe made a little more power in the low to mid range during normal riding. The power band did seem a little broader. Seemed more sound improvement. (we know now that the pipe moved the peak torque up)

3. I replaced with pod filter with the first Kamikaze intake. That was my first "WOW!" moment.

4. Refined and added turbulator to the Kamikaze intake.

Here's what I'm thinking. The pipe shifted the torque higher in the band. The intake, with what appears to be the proper intake length for my pipe, combined with turbulence reduction/improved velocity especially at lower rpms, not only restored torque to the low and mid range but enhanced it. The result, I believe, is a much flatter torque curve than stock with some power gains across the range. The intake and exhaust compliment each other IMO. Are they perfectly matched? No. But I'd love to tweak them to work even closer together in the 2K-6K rpm range.

Currently my carb setup is: #55 pilot with bleed holes, IMS out 1 turn, #155 main, 2 #4 washers. I'll do the dyno eval soon. The variables that I can easily mod for improved tuning are pipe length, pilot jet, washers and main jet. I'll see what they recommend after eval and post.

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