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Am I going overboard? (Read 449 times)
DocNeedles
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Am I going overboard?
05/04/09 at 21:08:27
 
A friend who is quite a mechanic and fabricator suggested that with my head cap bolts and holes it would be good to use a bottom tap to clean out the holes and then use "Never Seize" so that the bolts will not freeze in the future.  Being naive I bought a bottom tap taking in a head cover bolt to ensure I got the right one.  The guy at the Napa dealer said that a nut fitted on to both, even though I pointed out that it was quarter inch while the bike was metric.  When I went to screw in the bottom tap it would not connect with the threads so I didn't push it and would appreciate some expert advice.
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marshall13
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #1 - 05/04/09 at 21:44:09
 
cleaning up thread holes in iron is a good idea, aluminum, not so much... dont use a 1/4 inch tap, no matter what the napa guy told you.. threads in aluminum are often roll tapped, not cut... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol  for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect
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Gort
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #2 - 05/04/09 at 21:51:10
 
I always use anti-seize for assembly of dis-similar metals.  Here is Loctite's offerings:

http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productlisting.html?ProductLineID=23&VendorI...
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #3 - 05/04/09 at 22:40:43
 
yes, clean with nylon brush and anti-seize is a must.
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #4 - 05/05/09 at 06:24:31
 
Huh

ahhhhh...    any anti seize that is less $$$  ... and where would I use ths stuff?

Wolf Undecided
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #5 - 05/05/09 at 06:52:08
 
Dis-similar metals can 'gaul' ( little bits of the metal break loose from the softer metal) when threaded parts are disassembled.  You would use it on steel threads being threaded into aluminum parts, for example.  I've seen examples of sparkplugs removed from aluminum heads, having tiny bits of the aluminum head threads broken off into the sparkplug's steel threads.  As for less expensive anti-size, you can buy the Loctite for $4.00.  Do an internet search like I just did:

http://www.retrocycle.com/CustomChromeParts/14193/Loctite_AntiSeize_Lubricant...
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #6 - 05/05/09 at 06:52:43
 
Anywhere there are threads and unlike metals touching (is the theory). Saves us a ton of time at work, as long as someone actually uses it. Makes for quick work on bikes and cars too.
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prechermike
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #7 - 05/05/09 at 07:02:17
 
Doc

I think it is really "never seeze" and I am guessing it is a brand name.  I have never seen a can with a lable on it.  All I have seen is what guys already have in their shops and the label is long since gone.  I asked once about buying a can for my own use and people tell me not to, they will give me all I need, I will never use all I have.  After my father in law died, I found maybe a pint size can of the stuff, again no lable but just one look at the greasy, nasty can told me exactly what it was.

So, if you were closer I would say, "Don't buy a can, come on over and I will give you all you need!"
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DocNeedles
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #8 - 05/05/09 at 08:30:28
 
prechermike wrote on 05/05/09 at 07:02:17:
Doc

I think it is really "never seeze" and I am guessing it is a brand name.  I have never seen a can with a lable on it.  All I have seen is what guys already have in their shops and the label is long since gone.  I asked once about buying a can for my own use and people tell me not to, they will give me all I need, I will never use all I have.  After my father in law died, I found maybe a pint size can of the stuff, again no lable but just one look at the greasy, nasty can told me exactly what it was.

So, if you were closer I would say, "Don't buy a can, come on over and I will give you all you need!"

Hey, thanks for the offer neighbour!!!  Maybe you could send me a letter and glue it on to the back of a stamp!!
Thanks again,
DocNeedles.
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prechermike
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #9 - 05/05/09 at 08:33:06
 
A letter is a disgusting idea!  That stuff is about the nastiest mess I have ever seen, no matter what is close, it gets on it with a grey, slick, sticky mess.  I put the can I found into a liter sized drink bottle that I cut off just a little tall. That way I don't even have to touch the can! Wink
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #10 - 05/05/09 at 09:08:21
 
Well, about half right.

"Galling, according to ASTM standard G40 (2006), is: “a form of surface damage arising between sliding solids, distinguished by microscopic, usually localized, roughening and creation of protrusions (i.e., lumps) above the original surface”. In other words galling is material transfer from one metallic surface to another caused by movement and plastic deformation.  Galling usually refers to adhesive wear and transfer of material between metallic surfaces during sheet metal forming and other industrial applications."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling

Galling is the process of micro-welding then micro-tears of the welded bits of metal as they slide together under pressure.  Yes, it will ruin threads.  Yes, aluminum is prone to galling.  No, it has nothing to do with dissimilar metals.

Dissimilar metals plus a conductive media result in "Galvanic corrosion, a process that degrades metals electrochemically. This corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are placed in contact with each other in the presence of an electrolyte, such as salt water [or engine coolant with depleted corrosion inhibitors], forming a galvanic cell. A cell can also be formed if the same metal is exposed to two different concentrations of electrolyte. The resulting electrochemical potential then develops an electric current that electrolytically dissolves the less noble material [such as an aluminum cylinder head]."
[Comments mine]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_cell#Galvanic_corrosion

I've seen a lot of galling of uncoated steel threads against uncoated steel threads.  Coating of bolts, even the black oxide coating often seen, helps prevent galling.  Identical alloys of stainless threaded together dry may gall terribly.  

Keep in mind that lubricating the threads when it isn't called for in the spec changes the torque spec to an unknown value.  The torque value is based on the friction of the threads, the stretch of the bolt, the strength of the bolt, and the compression of the base metal and gasket.  If one of these is changed, the torque spec must be changed.  If the friction is reduced and the same torque (twist) applied, the bolt may stretch to failure or the base metal or gasket may be compressed too much.

I always use a dab of anti seize on sparkplug threads in an iron or aluminum head.  Never Seez is a brand name of one popular anti seize product, and I've used cases of pints of it, along with others like Never Seez Pure Nickel for high temperatures and Marine Never Seez for added corrosion resistance, Fel-Pro C5-A, and MolyKote G-N.



"Galling is prevented by the presence of grease or surface coatings, even if the surface coatings increase friction. It usually does not occur when joining dissimilar materials (e.g., threading 18-8 stainless steel into 17-4 stainless steel) even though both of those materials are susceptible to galling."
Wikipedia link above.

Gaul is the ancient Roman name for the parts of Western Europe we presently call France and Belgium.

That clerk at the NAPA auto parts store is a total fool.  Threads are specified by the diameter and the pitch...the pitch is the number of threads per inch or per millimeter.  Fractional (English) threads will be something like 1/4-20 which is 1/4" diameter and 20 threads per inch, also called National Coarse or USS thread.  1/4-28 is National Fine or SAE thread.  Metric threads will be something like M6x1...6mm diameter and 1 thread per millimeter.  There are choices of fine or coarse metric thread pitch--M6x.75, for example.  Another dimension will show the length of the shank, not including the head.  The strength of the bolt will be in the fractional system labeled as Grade 1, Grade 3, Grade 5, Grade 8, and more detailed grades.  In the metric system the higher strength grades will be labeled as 8.8 or 10.9.
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marshall13
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #11 - 05/05/09 at 09:37:34
 
just remember, never copper bearing anti-sieze compound on aluminum and steel combos... all the advance auto parts shops have those "postage stamp packs" by the parts counterman/woman... usually they have antisieze among them.... and, almost all antisieze compounds are very mildly abrasive, so on parts that you will be assembling and disassembling very often, use "blue goo" rtv silicone... that last is more for hot-rodding types, that might be pulling covers and such a few times a week.... if you strip and reassemble more than 6 times a year, blue goo... less often, any non-copper anti-sieze.... always use it on cylinder studs, and head nuts.... and as the previous poster noted, a must on spark plug threads...  and yeah, i think id avoid that napa from now on, anybody that would sell you a 1/4 tap for a metric thread cant be trusted to have enough brainpower to be able to graduate from loafers to laces...lol
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DocNeedles
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #12 - 05/05/09 at 10:42:33
 
marshall13 wrote on 05/04/09 at 21:44:09:
cleaning up thread holes in iron is a good idea, aluminum, not so much... dont use a 1/4 inch tap, no matter what the napa guy told you.. threads in aluminum are often roll tapped, not cut... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol  for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect

So I went to a neighbour who is the guns master here on the island and he lent me a copper barrel cleaning rod which does fit.  I then re-read your note and saw that you specified nylon.  So the question is would copper being a soft metal work.  My thoughts are that it might leave particles of copper in the bolt hole which I know would not be a good idea.
Appreciate your feedback.
DocNeedles
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #13 - 05/05/09 at 10:50:16
 
marshall13 wrote on 05/05/09 at 09:37:34:
i think id avoid that napa from now on, anybody that would sell you a 1/4 tap for a metric thread cant be trusted to have enough brainpower to be able to graduate from loafers to laces...lol

He probably has shoes with velcro straps.
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marshall13
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Re: Am I going overboard?
Reply #14 - 05/05/09 at 11:01:52
 
DocNeedles wrote on 05/05/09 at 10:42:33:
marshall13 wrote on 05/04/09 at 21:44:09:
cleaning up thread holes in iron is a good idea, aluminum, not so much... dont use a 1/4 inch tap, no matter what the napa guy told you.. threads in aluminum are often roll tapped, not cut... aif the holes look funky, chuck a nylon rifle cleaning brush in a 3/8 inch drill, use some oil, wear safety glasses...lol  for those bolts a 6 mm or .25 caliber NYLON, not brass or stainless, bore brush... they cost like 3 bucks... they come all the way up to 1/2 inch (12 mm), and down to 5mm or so...have sunglasses handy, as the ultra clean, shiny threads have a hypnotic effect

So I went to a neighbour who is the guns master here on the island and he lent me a copper barrel cleaning rod which does fit.  I then re-read your note and saw that you specified nylon.  So the question is would copper being a soft metal work.  My thoughts are that it might leave particles of copper in the bolt hole which I know would not be a good idea.
Appreciate your feedback.
DocNeedles

brass or copper isnt a good idea for 2 reasons... metalic wires will take a "set"... bend in the direction of rotation, thus reducing the od of the brush... nylon takes it much slower... a brass brush could be harder than the aluminum... not good... and, any copper residue (or cupric alloy residue) left on the aluminum will promote electrolytic damage to those aluminum threads... also a bad idea....
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