SuzukiSavage.com - cam journal repair with JB Weld

Chief Gunner Junior Member Offline 0 - 60 "When I darn Well Feel Like It" Posts: 91 Chesapeake, VA Gender:	cam journal repair with JB Weld 02/27/09 at 12:19:07 I started a post a few weeks back and promised to try a post pics with the progress. I cleaned the head and cover real good and got a better look and it appears that a previous owner may have already tried it. What do you guys think. Any ideas???
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Reply #1 - 02/27/09 at 12:30:03 What would happen if the gaps were plastigauged & a piece of a feeler gauge was JB'ed in, so the feeler gauge steel carried the oil/cam load & the JB held the feeler gauge strip in place?
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T Mack 1 - FSO Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline sold 2001 LS650 for a 1986 XLH1100 Posts: 2919 Emmaus,Pa Gender:	Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Reply #2 - 02/27/09 at 12:48:44 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/27/09 at 12:30:03: What would happen if the gaps were plastigauged & a piece of a feeler gauge was JB'ed in, so the feeler gauge steel carried the oil/cam load & the JB held the feeler gauge strip in place? The feeler gauge is hard steel, it would most likely damage the cam
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verslagen1

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #3 - 02/27/09 at 16:39:51

Dan Quail school of spelling? Grin

You have to find a place that will host them, like bikepics or the like and paste in the address in between the brackets like so...

{img]http:\\yada.yada.yada.jpg[/img}

to find the address of your pic, right click on it, select properties then it on the general page. highlight the address copy it paste it. that simple.

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #4 - 02/27/09 at 16:41:04

T Mack 1 - FSO wrote on 02/27/09 at 12:48:44:

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/27/09 at 12:30:03:

What would happen if the gaps were plastigauged & a piece of a feeler gauge was JB'ed in, so the feeler gauge steel carried the oil/cam load & the JB held the feeler gauge strip in place?

The feeler gauge is hard steel, it would most like damage the cam

hard steel against hard steel not good, don't count on oil always being there.

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #5 - 02/28/09 at 10:51:20

Chief Gunner wrote on 02/27/09 at 12:19:07:

I started a post a few weeks back and promised to try a post pics with the progress. I cleaned the head and cover real good and got a better look and it appears that a previous owner may have already tried it. What do you guys think.

Any ideas??? Undecided

Looks to me like just the standard smeared aluminum of a cam running dry

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #6 - 02/28/09 at 14:56:19

You could buy some brass shim stock (comes pretty thin) and try to epoxy that in place. You would likely have to ream out the head to make room for it though.

Key thing here is to document what you try and report honestly the success or failure of the various methods.

Too many dead heads out there, something has to be developed that actually works well and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

The JB Weld trick falls into this class or type of fix. We have MMRanch saying he did the JB Weld trick for 8,000 miles now, so we have some verbal info but no pictures before and after.

An opinion looking at your before pic is that the aluminum of the head is smeared. I don't see any JB Weld, I just see extreme heat and oil residues.

Warning -- if that bearing area gets that hot nothing is going to work. Sorry, something is out of whack to cause that much heat.

Is your cam warped (running good on outer races but wobbling in the center race causing all the heat and damage)? Spin it on "V" blocks and check with a dial indicator on the center journal before putting it back together.

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Chief Gunner

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #7 - 02/28/09 at 15:25:56

I'll check the cam and get back to you. I don't have a dial caliper but I'll find a way to check it. The other journals look like they are straight from the factory. Might as well check the oil ports too but at first glance they look good. The local machine shops won't touch a job this small or claim they don't have a tool small enough to bore grind it.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Reply #8 - 02/28/09 at 15:28:54 Once you have the cam sitting in a stand you can use about anything to see if its bent. Tape a wire to a flashlight & slide it closer & closer, slowly rotating the cam & if the gap between the end of the wire & the cam changes, well, she aint quite straight.
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28889 L.A. California Gender:	Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Reply #9 - 02/28/09 at 17:05:36 Well gunny, you're the one with eyes on (dems is great pics btw) take a blade and scrape it to see if it's plastic or aluminum. Are those both the same side? or is it from opposite sides?
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Kropatchek Serious Thumper Offline Why more than 1 cylinder? Posts: 1457 Alphen a/d Rijn Netherlands Gender:	Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld Reply #10 - 03/01/09 at 08:49:27 Looks like the bearing surface lacked lubrication. Some time ago ( 2years) I helped someone with a Savage engine with the same rotten bearings. Scraped them out a bit and put everything together. Has been running for 6000 KM since. Wonder how it looks to-day.
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Chief Gunner

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #11 - 03/01/09 at 11:02:05

Started the repair today. Checked the cam shaft with v-blocks made out of clothes pins drilled into a 2x4 and a sharpie as an indicator, found no wobble. Crude but hopefully effective. Would definitly attribute to excessive heat judging by the discoloration around the journal. I scraped away the parts that smeared out of the journal area and wet sanded the edges to make sure I didn't have any metal sticking up. I left some of the grooves in the journal itself alone so the JB weld would have something to stick to. I warmed up the head and top cover in the oven to 170 since it was only 45 degrees in the garage let cool to room temp and cleaned the surfaces with lauquer thinner. Used teflon tape on the camshaft and assembled and tourqued to spec's. I'll leave it alone for at least 48 hours and keep inside at room temp before I attempt to disassemble. I likely will not be able to get the c-ring guide back out but that shouldn't be a problem. I've got some good step by step close ups of both sides and will take shots after to document. It will be a few more months before she hits the road but I intend to perform an oil change at about 500 and will pull the cover off to see how it does. If anyone wants the shots sooner let me know and I'll post them.
Thanks for all the ideas guys. Cool

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #12 - 03/01/09 at 13:15:12

Chief Gunner, please excuse the possibly stupid question, but I gots to ask it.

I have never had my head apart, so I don't know the answer to this question but something Mescapatori said clicked when I saw your picture.

Do we have a center cam journal that does NOT have a forced pressure oil port fed from the oil gallery, but instead relies upon a cut into only one side of the circular aluminum journal, a single "oil groove" to carry oil into the journal from the head bathtub area?

In other words, are you working on a "built in" non-pressurized failure point? If the oil bath in the head recess gets low at any point in time the non-gallery non-pressurized center journal "groove" lube system runs dry and hot, immediately causing the damage you have pictorially represented?

Verslagen, you know the answer to this one -- are we really chasing a lube system improvement need?

If I were dumping oil back into the head, should I drill and build a return gallery port to this particular journal area from the top because otherwise it has no pressurized oil supply?

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Chief Gunner

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #13 - 03/01/09 at 13:27:24

Oldfeller there are a total of 5 'bearing points. 1 on the front side of the gear that is only a half bearing (lower only). 2 just on the other side of the gear (which are the ones that are damaged) and 2 at the far end of the shaft. There are holes inbetween the pairs but they are on the cover side of the journals and when I blew air into one it came out the other and didn't seem to go anywhere else. Not sure if it's pressurized.

There is a 'bath area' inbetween the two pairs where the cam lobes rotate and the book tells you to fill it with oil when reassembling.

There are 'ramp' areas at the top of the lower bearing half that would probably allow oil in. This is a bad picture but you can see it.

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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #14 - 03/01/09 at 13:42:32

The 5th journal you are talking about is just a thru hole that's closed up with the cover. The 4 journals are fed oil thru ports in the cover that are between 2 journals on each side. Oil is fed to the cover on the side closest to the chain. Any oil in the bath tub is quickly thrown from it, it's just a collection point to aid in lubrication on startup.
If there was any thing I could wish for, it would be for a higher volume oil pump. As soon as the journals wear, the pressure drops. So while it is evident that not enough oil is making it to the head, it could caused anywhere. clogged oil screen, missing tranny orifice, leaky bolt seals, etc. when you have little to play with, when a little leaks you have nothing.

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