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cam journal repair with JB Weld (Read 861 times)
Chief Gunner
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #15 - 03/01/09 at 13:48:26
 
Roger that. Not surprised really, this engine had evidence of several leaks when I pushed it into the garage. Hopefully she won't have any when I'm done. Just going step by step and looking through all the lessons learned on here.
Thanks for your time and I'll make sure to post the results on Tuesday, need to pick up some plastigage and see how close is somes to the good bearing.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #16 - 03/01/09 at 13:49:23
 
Gunny, last pic is interesting.  see the 3 grooves?  tells me something substantial was caught there for a while.

According to OF's and mine study for a better oil filter, dirt of varying sizes gets thru the filter, just less as it gets bigger.  The oil studies say that anything bigger then 10 microns is too big for the oil to protect against. Now it maybe that the grooves were caused by chunks of material that were ground away, so can't say the filter was at fault.  But it's interesting just the same.
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Chief Gunner
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #17 - 03/01/09 at 14:02:18
 
especially since there is no corresponding damage to the cam shaft itself.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #18 - 03/03/09 at 15:12:05
 
Well guys pulled it apart today. The teflon tape worked great and it came apart without much trouble.( Thanks Verslagen ! ) The parts that squeezed out on the sides I was able to shave off with a pocket knife which worries me about the cure so I have it under a heat lamp right now. I'll test the strength in the morning to see how hard it is. It does appear though that JB weld shrinks a little as it hardens because I can still feel the three grooves slightly when I run my fingernail across it. That or the teflon tape pushed down into the grooves. I'm afraid that will make plastigaging it impossible on the bearing with the grooves but I'll check the one next to it and see how it came out.
One question though is, will the grooves cause the oil barrier to fail again? (gonna try it anyway, can't afford a new head and cover right now.)
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #19 - 03/03/09 at 19:14:15
 
If JB Weld shrinks a little, then the teflon tape may not be necessary to create a tiny bit of running space to make some oil clearance.  Shrinkage may do that for us naturally.

But the tape allowed you to KNOW you were going to be able to take it back apart and that was what you were truly worried about.

Me, I'd have greased the cam up with fine white Lubriplate grease and put it together by halves to absolutely minimize my gap clearance.   You can always increase the gap with some judicial fine wet-dry sandpaper and a finger tip to tune it exactly to the plastigage.

Yeah, JB is kinda soft and trimmable for the first few days -- it gets tougher the longer it sits.   It takes epoxy based stuff several weeks to make it to maximum toughness and it will never be as tough as aluminum or brass or even lead.

Now, question is is it tough enough when fully cured to support the spinning bearing load on the journal?

Practically speaking, maybe.  

If you have a poor oiling system that never gets oil pressure up to the head (the situation that caused the original aluminum bearing journals to go in the first place) and you haven't done anything to fix that situation then you may go there again eventually.

But so far MMRanch has 8,000 miles of additional use on a JB Weld cam journal job and that my friends is more miles than some Savages get put on them in their entire engine lives.

Chief Gunner has a camera and he will tell us the story GOOD or BAD whenever it develops.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #20 - 03/03/09 at 19:28:39
 
Not knowing how the JB weld would tolerate the grease while curing is why I'd rather use the virtually inert teflon tape.  And it's pretty thin.  Have we ever established how much clearance we need?
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #21 - 03/03/09 at 19:45:53
 
Some aluminum powder stired into the mix may give it the strength it needs. Epoxy really isnt all that stout, its the bod to other materials thats strog, so, like the glue that is used to make particle board wouldnt work as a piece of flooring, maybe the JB weld shouldnt be asked to fill the gap alone?

Is Glad Wrap thinner than teflon tape?

Ohh yea, I dont kow how thinck this stuff is, but if the grooves are scary to you, maybe you couldwork the JB weld down gently till you get a flat area & reaply on top of that surface, allowing the JB to fill the grooves. Just be sure to not apply over any area that hasnt been scuffed good.
How big is the gap you are filling?
I really think the aluminum powder, liberally applied into the mix, would be a good idea. Aluminum or bronze maybe?Brass? Maybe a trip to a machine shiop to harvest some cuttings? Just have to hit it with Berrymans to get the oil out & a magnet to get the hard stuff..
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #22 - 03/03/09 at 19:50:50
 
Nope.  Nor do we really know how much oil clearance there is on a stock Savage engine.

Until the plastigage gets put in place and tightened down, we won't really know very much about oil clearance as a subject.   We just know what car engine guys know.

Follow up on the teflon tape idea -- brass bearing shim stock comes in down to .0015" and .002" thicknesses.  The stuff is about like aluminum foil in feel but it is tougher as the base metal is tougher.

If your head bearings were eat up enough to have the clearance to include both the brass shim stock and the JB Weld behind it, then the JB Weld would be plenty "squeezy" stiff enough to enforce the .002" thick shim stock into perfect conformance to the greased up cam surface.

That way you could get the assurance about being able to take it apart and you would get a durable skin to your new bearing surface AND you would get "approaching zero" oil gap clearance.

Downside would be that if you did have to sand it some, it would be tough to remove any material as brass shim doesn't abrade nearly as easy as JB Weld does.  Plus there isn't much there to abrade away.

Upside is that once the job was done, the surface provided would be a durability upper compared to the original aluminum.

============================

If I was intentionally reaming for some clearance to do such a thing, I'd get .005" or therabouts brass shim stock so as to have some meat to sand on.  And I'd ream to leave a thou or two of JB Weld paste in place behind the shim material.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #23 - 03/04/09 at 12:34:03
 
According to the Clymer manual the oil clearence should be .032 - .066mm (.0013-.0026in) Wear limit is .15mm or.0059in. I'll try to get it done tonight and post the results. Will be out of town till the end of the month. When I return I'll begin reassembly.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #24 - 03/04/09 at 17:44:41
 
Well the plastigage looked good on the undamaged bearings which at least is one good sign. The repaired side is sitting right at the wear limit but I'm going to see what i can get out of it and see what happens to the repair. What oil would you recommend I run to help with the existing condition? I'm good with cars and general mechanics but this is my first Motorcycle (don't even have a license yet). I'd like to make this last as long as possible. I figure if I'm gonna have a spill learning, might as well do it on something that's paid off. ( I hate new things anyway, tinkering is half the fun of ownership Grin )
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #25 - 03/06/09 at 15:57:00
 
20w50 is the only oil to use after a JB Weld repair job.  

I personally would use a dino version that did not cost an arm and a leg since you are going to have to change it several times pretty quick after putting the bike back together in order to remove all the crap that will come from your regasketing and repair efforts.

Question?  

How the hell did the bearing get torn up that badly and still leave any of the journals inside the normal wear zone?   It seems like they would all be shot, just not one side.

Second question?

Are you saying the teflon tape takes up too much room and puts you all the way up right at service limit?
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #26 - 03/06/09 at 16:21:14
 
I honestly don't know what would have done it. I bought the bike from my neighbors kid after it had been sitting for about 6 months and just started tearing it apart. Didn't even try to start it because of the oil leaks.
The damaged bearings are the closest ones to the gear so it has the most load on it. As far as the teflon and the clearance I would blame the shrinkage of the JB weld before the teflon tape.
If I had it to do over again I would not torque the bolts all the way down and then wet sand with some fine paper till the journal is within specs. If I had just run the bolts down enough to align and put slight pressure it wouldn't have pushed so much of the JB out and I would have the opportunity to work it. If it rips out again because of the oil clearance I'll probably try that.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #27 - 03/06/09 at 22:59:16
 
Someone needs to put a JB Weld "Bible" together, explaing how to use it to accomplish the mechanically impossible. Looking back, you see how you could have done things differently, like not torque it.

Anyone have an opinion on mixing powdered aluminum into it? Seems that would lesses the shrinkage, since there would be less JB Weld in the repair TO shrink.
OF's ideas were( Gee Whoda Ever Guessed he might have a good idea??) sounding very sharp. Wouldnt it just kick butt to build up the cam supports without a machine shop & have it work better than stock?
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #28 - 03/07/09 at 05:24:34
 
Justin, JB Weld is chock full of fine metal powder, that's why it it a thick dark paste.

Gunner did great -- he put us a whole lot closer to a final cheap solution.

The discussion on the teflon tape was good -- it lead to the brass shim stock forced into zero conformance with JB Weld behind it pushing on it.

That is the one my money is behind now -- durable bearing surface material, approaching a zero run clearance, still no machining (maybe a little sanding).

Our thanks to MMRanch and Cheif Gunner for developing the trick so far.  Give us another try or two and we'll have our bible on how to rig up a torn up head.
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Re: cam journal repair with JB Weld
Reply #29 - 03/07/09 at 09:56:37
 
I guess the only real answer would be to test the idea, idnetical situation, materials, load & add aluminum powder to one of the JB mixes, If I had the OOOmph Id do it in the shop. A simple strength test wouldnt be that hard to do. Even W/O a pressure gauge, a drill press could be used to apply a given amoung of pressure by using a pipe instead of my arm to pull down, hang weight on it then just compare how the other sample holds up. Which is stouter could be figured out. Whats driving my thinking is the chip board stuff.Im sure the glue that holds it together wouldnt last a minute if it was all there was in a 4X8 sheet used as a piece of floor. Not sure it would make a measurable difference, but I have that idea & if someone ever gets a chance to test it, I think that would be wway cool.
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