SuzukiSavage.com - Balance and Harmony to your mods ....

Oldfeller--FSO

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Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
08/09/08 at 05:15:56

I just finished a group ride with some of the best modders on this list and I have a point or two to make concerning the "standard mods" that everyone is doing to their bikes. Especially the exhaust mods ...

First, understand I just now realized that don't like a lot of unnecessary noise. I am biased on this point now and I admit it first thing on this post. I only realized this after our group ride, so don't hold it against me as it is a brand new "bigoted" position I just tripped over.

Riding with a bunch of opened up exhausts is painfully noticeable sometimes. A group of large singles makes a lot of unnecessary noise riding up to a gas stop or echoing off the steep mountain sides.

"Unnecessary noise" is the key point here -- the whapping blaps and the blued pipes didn't get them anything in the way of performance, leastwise not way up in the thin air of the mountains anyway.

My still stockish wee bagger ran away from the modded bikes wearing a stock muffler, a good state of tune and a cheap oiled polyfilter air filter. Stock jetting (good gas mileage), white spacer 1/2, tuned air screws and a still chrome looking exhaust pipe. I beat them not just once, but several times. Top end by about 2-3 miles per hour for 10-15 minutes at the longest high speed run so it wasn't just a fluke.

Acceleration was better than Ed's bike at all speeds. Toymaker's bike was much closer -- I'd say even on acceleration but I beat him on top end.

Lancer kicked my butt on all fronts, but if you saw the latest mods he has on his ride you would understand that right off. Lancer noted that some jetting was needed on the rest of the bikes and made a few comments to those points, but if it takes Lancer level skills to rejet and tune an opened exhaust to get equivalent performance to a stockish bike, well -- think on it a bit. Bigger jets mean worse gas mileage too.

Handling in the curvies, I beat Ed and stayed with Toymaker while he was riding his favorite roads. Balance in handling and tires and such pays off as well. Lancer kicked all our butts on fast riding on the Parkway, and he did catch up with the elusive lady with the long blonde hair, so I can't say much about that. Both Toymaker and I pulled away from Ed and Lancer on a bunch of hard right angle peg draggers right at the end of the ride, but that really wasn't typical of the rest of the trip. There weren't that many stop signs to run up there in the mountains.

This is the gist of it -- yank your stock muffler and fiddle with what you replace it with all you want. You will get more noise and if you rejet and tune carefully you maybe might get better top end horsepower.

But in the world of real riding, the fat old man riding the stockish wee bagger may be grinning at you at the end of the run because in the mountains, its all about good balanced performance and complete harmony between you and your bike ....

Oldfeller

PS I didn't expect this by the way -- I expected to be the doggiest bike there because of no exhaust mods leaving me "all plugged up". Now I question if I am ever going to put on an exhaust at all as I don't see a performance advantage to be had to balance out all the extra noise.

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods .... Reply #1 - 08/09/08 at 05:24:18 I think some people put on loud mufflers and think their faster because of the noise,and you do lose you low in torque.
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Charon

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #2 - 08/09/08 at 06:13:24

Contrary to popular belief, the guys at the factory usually DO know what they are doing. They have a lot of requirements they have to meet, some of them conflicting. Style, performance, safety, noise, emissions, cost, reliability, driveability. They also have a lot of resources, including dynos and test tracks, and experience.

It is entirely possible to make mufflers that allow good engine performance and are quiet. Every so often one or another of the motorcycle magazines will run a test, usually on some model of Harley, making performance mods and actually dyno testing the results. Sometimes there are horsepower gains, sometimes losses. The gains usually come at the top end, where they are useless on the street and impressive in the advertisements, at the cost of low- and mid-range power, making street driveability worse. Noise always increases, apparently being one of the selling points (If it is louder it must be more powerful).

To put it bluntly, if you don't have before and after numbers, either from a dyno or a test track, you don't really know whether the performance modifications did anything at all.

By the way, the same can be said for fuel and/or oil additives, including Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil, STP, and any other "snake oil."

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mastrofury

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #3 - 08/09/08 at 06:14:20

I agree about the noise. But there are a few things I like about it. First in this crazy town I live in was the worst drivers I ever seen. Seems like you see a crash every day of some sort. So I like to be heard by others so they know im there. I like to be able to hear what gear im running in. Stock exhaust all gears sounded the same. As far as performance I would have to say I have gained pretty good. So far I have Jardine slip-on, k&n airfilter, 2 washers on the spacer mod, 155 main jet, 55 pilot. My top end right at 90 mph, wich was only acheived once for a short distance. Dont know how long it will hold it there but seemed like it would just keep thumping along. Im gonna do a little more tuning. I thnk im good with the 155 main jet. but with the spacer mod and the 55 pilot jet im idiling a little rich, so i got a 52.5 and a 50 pilot jet comming to try. When inspecting the spark plug if checked idiling for say 5 mins its kinda black sooty. If checked after a good run and checked it that pretty tan color were looking for. So by all rights a little leaner pilot jet should be about perfect for me.. The plug can tell ya alot. Ever see Jack Roush after a cup practice? Whats he doing? Well he's inspecting spark plugs.. One of the best engine tuners alive!! Any way thats my take on it all..lol Im comming on the next ride. Not to far up there from Beaufort SC..

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LANCER

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #4 - 08/09/08 at 06:44:55

I must agree with the balanced approach to mod's and tuning. I approach any mod from the standpoint of efficiency, handling and comfort. I do like a good sounding engine but there must be benefit beyond just the sound.
The first change I made to my Savage was to replace the muffler, unfortunately the choice was not a good one and the result was harsh noise and no performance gain. I then began the search for something that would yield better performance, efficiency and the type sound I desired. I liked the stock Sportster muffler for the stock Savage engine, it works well, sounds good and is cheap to get. I also like the Supertrapp for its tunability and associated sounds. For me, I finally settled on a muffler from a research company's R&D program. It is a one-off test unit that was designed for big twin HD baggers and it works great on my modified Savage engine. It is a bit on the loud side but backs up the sound level with performance beyond any other muffler I have ever used on my bike. Additionally, my header is not stock but is made from 1.75" OD tube of stock length.
This all goes to balance. Intake and exhaust changes need to be balanced with jetting and tuning changes. Add a performance cam and the other components need to be adjusted accordingly.

But back to the basic issue at hand; balance is needed.
Please do not throw an open pipe or gutted muffler on your Savage/S40, because while making a lot of noise it will hurt performance. The engine needs back pressure for low-midrange performance where 90% of riding is done.

After the mountain ride on Saturday, Toymaker and I spent some time on Sunday tinkering with his bike. His muffler was a virtual open pipe and backfiring. We took his carb off to check the jets and found the pilot air adjusting screw had a broken tip which certainly made tuning difficult at best. As a quick-n-dirty short term fix we put a washer in the header-to-muffler connection and made assorted jet changes, which helped some but the need for a new pilot adj screw and better muffler is evident. Improved milage, power and better sound will result from the needed changes.

Ed's bike was in better tune than Toymaker's but there was some evidence of lean running with popping, though not as much as Toymakers.
Oldfeller's bike did not backfire at all that I was aware of, evidense of proper jetting/tuning which rewarded him with good performance.

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sockmonkeygirl Serious Thumper Offline 37 Stitches Posts: 819 W.Mass Gender:	Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods .... Reply #5 - 08/09/08 at 07:50:45 Very interesting read! I'm not technical, but I still got the gist.
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #6 - 08/09/08 at 08:24:37

Interesting OF. I sure would be surprised to find the Trapp & jetting resulted in only more gas burned, but I spose anythings possible. I think mine was running pretty allright, since it didnt blue the pipe running, I blued it in the driveway, goosing it, listening to the valves, all stock. Maybe I shoulda left it alone.

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Gort

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #7 - 08/09/08 at 09:04:53

[quote author=745F56455859370 link=1218284157/0#2 By designdate=1218287604]Contrary to popular belief, the guys at the factory usually DO know what they are doing. They have a lot of requirements they have to meet, some of them conflicting. Style, performance, safety, noise, emissions, cost, reliability, driveability. They also have a lot of resources, including dynos and test tracks, and experience.

It is entirely possible to make mufflers that allow good engine performance and are quiet. Every so often one or another of the motorcycle magazines will run a test, usually on some model of Harley, making performance mods and actually dyno testing the results. Sometimes there are horsepower gains, sometimes losses. The gains usually come at the top end, where they are useless on the street and impressive in the advertisements, at the cost of low- and mid-range power, making street driveability worse. Noise always increases, apparently being one of the selling points (If it is louder it must be more powerful).

To put it bluntly, if you don't have before and after numbers, either from a dyno or a test track, you don't really know whether the performance modifications did anything at all.

By the way, the same can be said for fuel and/or oil additives, including Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil, STP, and any other "snake oil." [/quote]

'Marvel Mystery Oil' and it's British equivalent 'Redex' are simple oils which will not burn in a combustion chamber. When used in an Upper Cylinder Lubricator, it's vapor is drawn into the combustion chamber via the intake valves, lubricating the stems and seats, then coating the upper cylinder as the piston goes down, and as the piston completes its exhaust stroke, is blown out through the exhaust valves, lubricating those seats and stems as it passes by.

These areas see little lubrication, and the Marvel oil remedies that issue. Lead in fuel was a lubrication for valves, however since the advent of lead free gas, non-hardened valve seats often suffer for lack of lubrication, especially in high RPM (motorcycle) and lugging situations. The oil also softens any carbon build up in these areas, allowing it to eventually be blown out of the engine.

This is no 'snake oil'. There is no 'secret formula' or any ridiculous claims. It has been used since the '50s, mostly by those owning stationary equipment that is run 24 hrs daily and who are trying to get as much hours/mileage out of their investment as possible, by lubricating an area which, by design, does not see the same lubrication as other engine parts.

Personally I have used an Upper Cylinder Lubricator to reduce the octane requirements of one of my engines by cooling Marvel oil before it's vapor is dispensed into engine cylinders, thus cooling the cylinder temperatures and thus allowing me to use regular gas instead of premium without the usual pinging and dieseling. Removing a cylinder head of an engine that has been using Marvel oil will show red stained valves and stems, indicating that the oil is indeed passing through.

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28657 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods .... Reply #8 - 08/09/08 at 10:39:04 Just one point...If the bike is getting more popping in the mountains, where the air is thinner, isn't it a rich pop condition and in need of leaning out? I get a lot more popping in the mountains, and also on hot, humid days....all of which are thin air, rich mix conditions.
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Ed L.

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #9 - 08/09/08 at 13:25:06

Well the only defense I have on my bike's performance was that I really wasn't running as WOT as much as I could of. Coming from out of state and on unfamilar roads I wasn't blasting as hard as I could, yeah I was riding like a p*ssy. I do need to rejet my scoot, the pilot jet needs to go up a size and I think a 155 would help the top end. Still had fun Cheesy

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Silver '02, clubman handle bars, Cobra headlight, Sportster muffler, K+N stock air filter, 152.5 main, Superbrace, oil cooler, 1/2 inch aluminium plate forward controls, spark advance, goes like stink

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods .... Reply #10 - 08/09/08 at 16:08:35 O.F. needs to go visit Ed & check out his local roads. Better yet, we all need to find a dyno & check the results of the mods.
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Ed L.

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #11 - 08/09/08 at 17:58:16

The truth is that I was having a bit of problem with keeping my right foot on the foot peg Wink

, it kept falling off. Had to slip the toe of my right boot under the exhaust pipe to hold on. I was also dealing with a problem with the right mirror. I did say that the bike was lightened up for the ride back Wink

. I was content to follow not lead

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Silver '02, clubman handle bars, Cobra headlight, Sportster muffler, K+N stock air filter, 152.5 main, Superbrace, oil cooler, 1/2 inch aluminium plate forward controls, spark advance, goes like stink

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #12 - 08/10/08 at 06:31:47

Justin, is your bike properly tuned for riding in the mountains?

Do you have any beautiful scenery and good isolated roads relatively nearby that are beautiful and curvy?

If memory serves, you have a Lancer cam in your bike and one of those nice disk tuneable exhaust systems that you have rejetted for very carefully.

Lancer was able to whup all of us very handily, you should be able to do the same.

I would be happy to offer you the opportunity to do so some time during the two weeks leading up to Labor day -- that way you could remove the stain on the honor of hot sounding low performing very noisy exhausts everywhere.

BTW, Lancer's exhaust wasn't as noisy as the rest were by a long shot -- what does that suggest to you? He also put resistance back into Toymaker's system so he could tune to it.

Hmmmmm .....

As far as going to Florida, too long a trip, too hot, too flat and once you got there all the stop lights would get in the way a lot ... Plus Ed is working on some accessories for his bike, he has some plans for newfangled improved foot pegs and such.

PM me if you are interested, I am looking for a good relatively short trip and a good reason to make the trip.

Oldfeller

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #13 - 08/10/08 at 08:28:48

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/10/08 at 06:31:47:

Justin, is your bike properly tuned for riding in the mountains?

** Honestly not certain of the tuning, reasonably satisfied, growls on decel, occasional little pops, no big shotgun or machine gun stuff, like it did stock. It was an embarrassment before, so much popping, tho, now I expect that was largely exhaust leak issues.

Do you have any beautiful scenery and good isolated roads relatively nearby that are beautiful and curvy?

OHH yea, decent looking roads & scenery, tho nothing like what is Out ther in the world, but having lived in West Tx, I figure I live in Paradise.

If memory serves, you have a Lancer cam in your bike and one of those nice disk tuneable exhaust systems that you have rejetted for very carefully.

As carefully as I am capable of without getting absolutely persnickety. I figure I am an 80% mechanic. Some folks can squeeze every bit an engine has out, I figure I can get 80% & not make myself crazy. I have enough other hassles that demand I knock off on the bike & deal with other stuff, that is nowhere near 80% function. I have a Honda car head off & some issues with going back together, a lawnmower that has leaked the juice out of its "Sealed from factory" rear axle/transmission, & a backhoe that hasnt run in 2 years, so, the bike is running & must be left alone for now.One day tho, I want to feel like messing with it & have time & do Lancers full run thru the carb. Sure would like to slap it on a Dyno.

Lancer was able to whup all of us very handily, you should be able to do the same.

Yea, yea, yea, in my dreams. I have corners I have been working on for 2+ years & continue to set new exit speed records. One I was getting thru at 35 I am now hitting 55 & I figure a real rider could nail it at over 60 with the Savage. I get pegs down & push my limits, but I expect others are just simply better riders & faster thru the corners. But, thats okay, cuz I get a thrill out of my self competition. I would like to see someone( a good rider) take my bike thru those turns.

I would be happy to offer you the opportunity to do so some time during the two weeks leading up to Labor day -- that way you could remove the stain on the honor of hot sounding low performing very noisy exhausts everywhere.

I don't think my exhaust is all that noisy. But, if there were 3 of us set up the same, running together, it would be for sure, so, I guess it would be better, quieter. I do wonder if it would be better with a few disks pulled out. It has 14 on it & that was not done scientifically, at all. I dont get ugly looks from folks at lights. Or maybe, they are Skeert to scowl at the Big Bad Biker Duuuude, all 135 pounds of me.

BTW, Lancer's exhaust wasn't as noisy as the rest were by a long shot -- what does that suggest to you? He also put resistance back into Toymaker's system so he could tune to it.

Weeeell, it suggests what I have suspected. I am considering finding the time to pull a few disks, daggummit O.F., you are seriously making me think I need to. I know Reelthing has some doubts about the tuning as is, with the 14 disks & only a 150 main, stock idle jet & so close to stock white washer it would take calipers to be sure its not, so, maybe I could pop a few disks off & hear & feel improvement, I like a quiet ride.

Hmmmmm .....

As far as going to Florida, too long a trip, too hot, too flat and once you got there all the stop lights would get in the way a lot ... Plus Ed is working on some accessories for his bike, he has some plans for newfangled improved foot pegs and such.

PM me if you are interested, I am looking for a good relatively short trip and a good reason to make the trip.

Oldfeller

I have heard that a well tuned Thumper will growl a bit on decel. Mine does. Once I got it feeling good on accel & giving a rumbling with occasional snarl on decel, I called it good. What I do notice is that it idles lower than I want after its been running 15 to 20 minutes, but after Ive been out for an hour, the idle is up. How much?? HekkIdunno, I bet thers a couple hundred RPM swing, so I mess with the idle speed, jack it up a bit when I drive away, after I kill the choke, which I run at the first click for 5 minutes or so. But, Ive seen 94 on the clock, so I figure its getting a decent amount of fuel, but maybe I could restrict the exhaust a bit & improve things generally.

I believe there is room for improvement, enough to justify spending the time to go get.

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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: Balance and Harmony to your mods ....
Reply #14 - 08/10/08 at 09:20:50

How many weeks of adjustment time do you need before you think you are optimal? We got 3 weeks until I have to go back to work, so there is plenty of time for you to get all ready. Heck, I'll even help you after I get there if help would help.

PM me and tell me whereabouts you live so I can count up the miles to get there.

Oldfeller

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