SuzukiSavage.com - rolled and smoked him

Paladin.

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #15 - 06/04/08 at 16:39:39

barry68v10 wrote on 06/04/08 at 15:05:25:

....We just said that multis are always quicker than singles....what about first 1/8 mile or first 100 yards...how about 0-40mph or first 50 feet? ....

"WE" do not say that multis are always quicker. Given the cited times for 0-60 and 1/4 mile it is obvious that the Savage is quicker off the line than a HD838. AFAICT, all else being equal, the single is quicker, the multi is faster.

bill67 wrote on 06/04/08 at 15:39:59:

My idea of performance is a high gear roll on from 40mph to 70mph thats the speeds you use most when riding a motorcycle.

That may be the speeds YOU use most, sure as heck ain't the speeds I use most. I'm running 0-35 upto 0-50. I don't do 0-60 or quarter miles, especially when that quarter mile has me well over the speed limit.

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KwakNut

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #16 - 06/05/08 at 00:51:25

barry68v10 wrote on 06/04/08 at 15:05:25:

True. But how much does engine/tranny design factor in the overall weight? Any 350 lb. or 370 lb. multis out there?

And what's the difference in gearing?

We just said that multis are always quicker than singles....what about first 1/8 mile or first 100 yards...how about 0-40mph or first 50 feet? Are we willing to make that statement for multiple cylinders in all cases?

Sorry all if I'm hijacking this thread. I've been pretty busy lately and unable to get in the fray Wink

most of the points you raise are answered on the single vs twin thread

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1212039158/15

In short, the only advantage the single has in terms of performance is that its torque is produced lower, so if you open the throttle at, say, 1500rpm you’ll pull ahead of the twin or multi, but both of them produce MORE torque higher up the rev range, so you’ll just nudge ahead by a bike length or less before they tear past. Every time.

And even that bike length will only happen if the twin/multi rider has his bike in the wrong gear, or lets the clutch out too soon from a standing start.

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KwakNut

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #17 - 06/05/08 at 01:09:43

Paladin. wrote on 06/04/08 at 16:39:39:

"WE" do not say that multis are always quicker. Given the cited times for 0-60 and 1/4 mile it is obvious that the Savage is quicker off the line than a HD838.

Based on the facts we have, the only thing obvious is that the Savage is slightly slower to 60 than the 883 and way slower over a quarter.
The Savage may get off the line quicker, but we don’t know just yet.

I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

Paladin. wrote on 06/04/08 at 16:39:39:

AFAICT, all else being equal, the single is quicker, the multi is faster.

I’ll remind you of this post on the 650 single vs twin thread recently (both modern bikes producing similar levels of torque but at different revs):

KwakNut wrote on 05/30/08 at 02:41:31:

This seems to be a good comparison.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/5000SE/bmw_vs_xr_dyno_5_23_03.jpg
http://photos.motorcycle-usa.com/bmw_vs_xr_dyno_5_23_03.JPG
http://www.biketestusa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=71&Page=4

The two bikes produce similar ‘amounts’ of torque, in terms of spread of delivery above 25ftlb, but the BMW twin produces its slightly higher peak about 2000rpm further up the rev range than the Honda single.

The article seems an impartial comparison, but this quote is relevant:

“the 324-lb. XR pulls harder at lower speeds than the 412-lb. BMW. The XR's lower torque peak gives a rider immediate access to its fairly shallow well of power, but the BMW walks away from the XR during impromptu drag races, despite the Honda's better power-to-weight ratio”.

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furious70

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #18 - 06/05/08 at 09:03:42

AMEN again kwaknut. A lot of people don't seem to understand the feeling of immediate torque comes at the expense of all around performance.

Quote:

The XR's lower torque peak gives a rider immediate access to its fairly shallow well of power, but the BMW walks away from the XR during impromptu drag races, despite the Honda's better power-to-weight ratio

This is a great way of putting it. If I have to make a choice, I'd much rather gear for the deep well of power than experience the immediate pull of the shallow well. Makes me more interested in a sport touring bike just thinking about it

Quote:

I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

This will be brilliant. I've tried to do this before with dyno graphs of different engines and the tranny + rear gear multipliers to get an idea of how it would play out. I got some interesting graphs of where the total system torques among the combos rise and fall, but had no way to turn that into anything tangible.

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KwakNut

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #19 - 06/05/08 at 09:18:00

furious70 wrote on 06/05/08 at 09:03:42:

AMEN again kwaknut. A lot of people don't seem to understand the feeling of immediate torque comes at the expense of all around performance.

Quote:

The XR's lower torque peak gives a rider immediate access to its fairly shallow well of power, but the BMW walks away from the XR during impromptu drag races, despite the Honda's better power-to-weight ratio

This is a great way of putting it. If I have to make a choice, I'd much rather gear for the deep well of power than experience the immediate pull of the shallow well. Makes me more interested in a sport touring bike just thinking about it

Quote:

I will resolve this – I’ll get hold of torque/gearing/weight data for both bikes and plot them through the first couple of gears, fact vs fact. Give me a few hours between distractions at work!!

This will be brilliant. I've tried to do this before with dyno graphs of different engines and the tranny + rear gear multipliers to get an idea of how it would play out. I got some interesting graphs of where the total system torques among the combos rise and fall, but had no way to turn that into anything tangible.

You get there by spending so many hours putting in iterative lines of calculation into Excel that at the end of it, you can see the Matrix.

Still not got round to digging out my programme and the info, will try tonight.

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KwakNut

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #20 - 06/05/08 at 16:00:11

Right, I've gathered the data I needed for full comparison between the Savage and the 883. Standard torque curves, gear ratios (gears plus primary and final drives), tyre sizes, wet weights.

I can't put them into the programme and pull out the results until I get home for the weekend (don't have it on my laptop), but here's an initial feel for things:

Across the rev range, the 883 has an average of 61% more torque

In first gear, the Savage has a 16% gearing advantage.

With a 200lb rider (incluing clothes/helmet etc), the Savage has a 34% weight advantage.

Combine them overall, and the 883 has an advantage of just 5% in average acceleration through first gear.

That kind of fits with the slight difference we're aware of for 0-60.

I'll post full results tomorrow when I get back home and can get to my programme, but looking at the torque curves, I think the only chance the Savage has off the mark is in the 0-5mph bracket, which isn't really relevant!

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If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
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Sandy Koocanusa

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #21 - 06/05/08 at 16:16:04

I can tell your mommy didn't read to you enough when you were young, KwakNut. You left out two very important factors: "The little engine that could" curve, and the "tortoise and the hare" corrollary.

My Savage can whip the socks off any Harley I choose to put it up against. I just don't choose the fast ones with skinny riders!

Have a good weekend.

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Savage: (adj)1. Wild 2. Uncivilized : Primitive 3. Ferocious 4. Cruel or merciless : Brutal --- Webster's. (n.) 1. A motorcycle named for its seat.--- Sandy's unabridged

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LANCER

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #22 - 06/05/08 at 20:06:22

Sandy Koocanusa wrote on 06/05/08 at 16:16:04:

I can tell your mommy didn't read to you enough when you were young, KwakNut. You left out two very important factors: "The little engine that could" curve, and the "tortoise and the hare" corrollary.

My Savage can whip the socks off any Harley I choose to put it up against. I just don't choose the fast ones with skinny riders!

Have a good weekend.

It is fun to embarrass sporty's in the jack rabbit runs Grin

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Indysavage YaBB Newbies Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 6 Indianapolis Gender:	Re: rolled and smoked him Reply #23 - 06/06/08 at 07:39:17 First of all, I love my 86 Savage, also in my garage is a stock 1978 HD flh. The flh is no speed demon by any strech of the imagination. The HD is faster than the Savage in every way. I will also say if I get a chance to blow by someone on an HD when I'm on the savage I will not hesitate!
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furious70

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Re: rolled and smoked him
Reply #24 - 06/06/08 at 07:47:56

sure, if I can embarrass someone by beating them on my wife's savage, that's hillarious fun, (and something probably went wrong with the other guy). But if people are expecting to line up against anything but a Rebel at a stoplight and smoke them, I think they'll be very disappointed.
As far as the 40-70mph roll on is concerned, from my butt-o-meter, the savage would do worse there than from a dead stop against most bikes.

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