SuzukiSavage.com - Squeel, screetch, chirp

thumperclone

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Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp
Reply #15 - 11/25/07 at 18:50:17

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:

Now that I have finished running out to the garage to make sure that I do not speak incorrectly, here goes.

First let me quote the Suzuki Service Manual...

On the last line of the first paragraph on page 2-12 it says: "Use the side stand for accurate adjustment".

The SSM does say to raise the rear wheel to check for belt wear but for adjusting the belt the wheel is supposed to be down. So, if the "stealership" does it that way, then they do not even follow the manual. That's really inspiring and the reason I am a "handyman" Tongue

However, just like using the gage is about useless, so is that whole approach, IMHO. Here's why.

I know it seems right to raise the wheel, but as the rear wheel moves up the belt actually gets tighter. The reason is that the swingarm and pulleys do not follow the same upward arc. The pivot of their centerlines are offset.

(Note: that is why older dirt bikes had to run a loose chain with all their wheel travel)

Like the manual, I prefer to have it on the side stand because that puts some load on it. When you sit on it, it gets even tighter. Check it out. Adjust the belt to spec, leave the gage in there and have someone bounce slowly on the seat while you watch. You'll see the gage get tighter. Now just imagine going over a speed bump.

Everyone can do it however they choose. I just know that this topic comes up all the time, and I hear the same solutions over and over. Why? Most likely because the "stealership" adjusted it the "last" time.

(Note: the 90 degree method is an old industrial maintenance practice for checking belts)

We had 2 non-squeaking Savages (before my chain conversion), and we do not use the gage or any dressing on the belt.

IMO, if you use the gage and use a dressing, you have nothing more than an extra maintenance job.

From my CD...

The Savage Companion Photo CD

Click Above to Visit My Web Site or,

Look below for your method for adjusting belt tension.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Belt_TwistMethod.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b277/gmdinusa/Belt_TensionGauge.jpg

It's up to you, now!

in the spirit of that logic you need to be sitting on the bike when adjusting the algn,tens..SO happy medium is all we can hope for...ssm and clymers dont take into account wild temp swings(in refrence to belt)like we have where i am..these conditions affect carb tuning,handling,starting issues etc...example 24f at nite 60f at 2pm bike characteristics will fluctuate........the silocone based dressing spans the gaps of the happy medium...its not rocket science just a handy tool..
this topic is heading along the lines of a what oil to use
thread!! 8)

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6051 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #16 - 11/25/07 at 19:08:33 govmule84 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11: Time for a chain conversion... then what kind of lube ?? not oil,attracts and holds grit,bell makes a product i use on thumperclone(chinese ct70)works great goes on kinda white and DOES NOT attract,hold grit..the miracle(detriment?)of modern science!!
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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6051 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #17 - 11/25/07 at 19:17:25 greg ..if the ls had a center stand also which stand would you use for belt adjs? lubing the belt once a year is less maint. than oil changes.. in my conveyor belt days we never used lube or the 90 deg method but torque was at alot lesser value...
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vtail Senior Member Offline life's short, ride fast Posts: 408 Portland,OR Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #18 - 11/25/07 at 21:06:43 The belt is not as sensitive to temp fluctuations as you might think, Between 100 and 32 degrees it only changes a few thousands of an inch. Not anough to worry about. Miss-alignment causes most of the squeeks. Twisting the belt 90 degrees works just fine on the side stand
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp
Reply #19 - 11/26/07 at 09:01:29

vtail wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:

The belt is not as sensitive to temp fluctuations as you might think, Between 100 and 32 degrees it only changes a few thousands of an inch. Not anough to worry about. Miss-alignment causes most of the squeeks. Twisting the belt 90 degrees works just fine on the side stand Grin

Like I said, people will choose to do whatever they want. Never mind what the manual says, experience has shown or even what can be proven. A belt dressing is just treating the symptom, not the cause.

As for belt temps...friction equal heat, and the belt warms up in use anyway. I'm sure the manufacturers figure the operating temps of the bike and rider into the design of the belt...

As for squeaking caused by misalignment of the pulley. I don't believe that either. The pulley is a rubber cushioned drive. It floats. Check that out too. Reach down and see if you can push/pull the pulley sideways against the wheel. It wiggles. Since it moves, just how is "static centering" of the belt gonna help under a torque load from the engine? It doesn't, and I simply use the marks on the swingarm to center the belt.

Still, I gotta wonder why my fingers were numb from cold on our last ride, and my spouse's bike didn't squeak. It must have been too dry, too loose, and too crooked. I guess that I got lucky.

KISS!

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #20 - 11/26/07 at 09:32:42 I think I will go along with how suzuki says to adjust the belt, they have been building motorcycles for a while now. i've had good luck with the dealers and their mechanics.
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #21 - 11/26/07 at 11:06:39 Well, that's certainly a no brainer. If you don't have a problem, then don't do anything different. D_uuuh!
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #22 - 11/26/07 at 11:08:14 Is the best belt dressing synthetic or natural?
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #23 - 11/26/07 at 11:09:37 verslagen1 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11: Is the best belt dressing synthetic or natural? It is suitable for vegans as well as meat-eaters
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vtail

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Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp
Reply #24 - 11/26/07 at 11:18:53

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:

Like I said, people will choose to do whatever they want. Never mind what the manual says, experience has shown or even what can be proven. A belt dressing is just treating the symptom, not the cause.

As for belt temps...friction equal heat, and the belt warms up in use anyway. I'm sure the manufacturers figure the operating temps of the bike and rider into the design of the belt...

As for squeaking caused by misalignment of the pulley. I don't believe that either. The pulley is a rubber cushioned drive. It floats. Check that out too. Reach down and see if you can push/pull the pulley sideways against the wheel. It wiggles. Since it moves, just how is "static centering" of the belt gonna help under a torque load from the engine? It doesn't, and I simply use the marks on the swingarm to center the belt.

Still, I gotta wonder why my fingers were numb from cold on our last ride, and my spouse's bike didn't squeak. It must have been too dry, too loose, and too crooked. I guess that I got lucky.

KISS!

The drive hub is supported by a bearing (#09262-25073) which is pressed in the drive drum and has rotational play only in its rubber drive shock absorbers but should not have sideways play!(Wobble) If that's the case better replace that bearing. Also, I do not rely on those swingarm markings. Ty a 25ft sting tightly on to the ground and run the LEFT side of the frontwheel alongside and see where the wider rear tire runs. Now place the frontwheel on the RIGHT and run it along. Then look at the reartire again. The overlap should be the same. A lot of times you're gonna be in for a surprise that the overlap is NOT the same by relying on those markings. Mine sure was off. When the pulley is slightly mis-aligned it causes the belt to run against one of its shoulders and causes squeeks. If this pulley was always perfectly aligned it would not need shoulders like the cambelt drive on cars who for most have no shoulder (Guards). We need shoulders since we mis-aligne stuff. We human afterall and not perfect. Wink

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #25 - 11/26/07 at 11:33:14 A good straight 8 foot 2x4 works good for getting the rear wheel straight with the front. Thats the way I always did it when I changed tires.
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #26 - 11/26/07 at 11:46:01 Especially when both tires are a different thickness. Oh yeah. I thought you said that you did things by the book.
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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #27 - 11/26/07 at 11:51:40 Greg I'am not going to hold your hand to tell you how to do it. Anyway I think you must have two left hands.
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Savage_Greg

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Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp
Reply #28 - 11/26/07 at 12:02:56

vtail wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:

The drive hub is supported by a bearing (#09262-25073) which is pressed in the drive drum and has rotational play only in its rubber drive shock absorbers but should not have sideways play!(Wobble) If that's the case better replace that bearing. Also, I do not rely on those swingarm markings. Ty a 25ft sting tightly on to the ground and run the LEFT side of the frontwheel alongside and see where the wider rear tire runs. Now place the frontwheel on the RIGHT and run it along. Then look at the reartire again. The overlap should be the same. A lot of times you're gonna be in for a surprise that the overlap is NOT the same by relying on those markings. Mine sure was off. When the pulley is slightly mis-aligned it causes the belt to run against one of its shoulders and causes squeeks. If this pulley was always perfectly aligned it would not need shoulders like the cambelt drive on cars who for most have no shoulder (Guards). We need shoulders since we mis-aligne stuff. We human afterall and not perfect. Wink

I know what you are saying, and I also have worked with machinery all my life. So speaking "bearings" is nothing new. I wasn't talking about radial play. What did I say above? ("Reach down and see if you can push/pull the pulley sideways against the wheel.") It is lateral play.

Please note: Only one bearing is used on the pulley...It still moves because a couple thousands in bearing play translates into alot more movement at the pulley rim. The pulley is not pressed against the wheel. The bearing INNER race is fixed by axle spacers, but the OUTER race can still move. Did you try to wiggle your pulley yet?

Like I said, you want to blame the squeak on pulley alignment? Go ahead and spend your time spinning the tire and watching the belt move. You guys are into self abuse Tongue

No squeaks in my garage.

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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Squeel, screetch, chirp Reply #29 - 11/26/07 at 12:04:56 bill67 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11: Greg I'am not going to hold your hand to tell you how to do it. Anyway I think you must have two left hands. Spoken like a true mental giant
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