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Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths (Read 53 times)
Savage_Greg
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #30 -
05/28/07 at 19:59:14
borne2fly wrote
on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
I was interested to find out if anyone had installed a check valve in the lubrication system to the cylinder head. With all the forces acting on the cam bearing surfaces it seems reasonable to insure that pressurized oil is available immediately after the engine starts, especially since there are no replaceable cam bearings as in many other engines.
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
In this case, since it ain't been broke in 21 years, there's no need to fix it.
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borne2fly
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #31 -
05/28/07 at 22:56:32
Yes indeed.
Originally I was under the impression that the lengthy oil path to the cylinder head was responsible for cam seizures. Fortunately this appears to be a rare thing. But a check valve in just a such a path is just one of several differences between an engine that will run 50K miles and one that will run 100K. I'd kinda like to see how long the little beast can be made to last.
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barry68v10
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #32 -
05/29/07 at 03:29:04
I installed a "pre-oiler" on my RV because it sits unused for long periods of time. Simple concept, just tap into a pressure line (preferably after the oil filter so you catch "clean" oil), add a valve and a container that will hold oil at about 100 psi. First startup, open the valve and start the engine wait a minute or two and close the valve then shutoff the engine. Check the oil level and add to bring up to "normal". Then, just open the valve before you start and if you have a pressure gauge, you'll see the oil pressure before you start. Now, just start it up, and close the valve before shutdown and you're ready for the next start. A system like this could be added to the savage on the front oil pressure port where some of us have tapped in for the oil cooler. Then you'd only have to start-up without oil pressure whenever you change oil. Some test results show an 80% reduction in engine wear when an engine is consistently started under oil pressure.
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petc0ck mod, white spacer removed, 150 main jet, 12.5" shocks, 16" turnout muff, oil cooler mod, chain conversion, Tkat brace, external fuel filter, fuel screen removed...
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Kropatchek
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #33 -
05/29/07 at 07:29:32
Savage_Greg wrote
on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
Purists and some manuals also suggest that you disconnect the plug and crank it over a bit to lube things and fill the lines without the ignition.
NO Purists, just common sence and standard practice for everyone involved in (re)building engines.
Crank the engine over untill the lowoil pressure light is OUT
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Never ask your bike to scream before her throat is warm.
'93 Sav in '96 ( yellow) looks
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #34 -
05/29/07 at 07:47:51
Kropatchek wrote
on 12/31/69 at 16:00:05:
NO Purists, just common sence and standard practice for everyone involved in (re)building engines.
Crank the engine over untill the lowoil pressure light is OUT
WAIT!!!!
You have a low pressure oil light? Is that what the blank space on our speedo is supposed to be?
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Reelthing
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #35 -
05/29/07 at 07:49:09
I do that every time I start either one of LS650s..... wait where was that light again
(gues we could wire a pressure switch to the side stand down light/blank on US bikes)
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #36 -
05/29/07 at 08:13:06
Yeah...European models had light switches. What else do they have?
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borne2fly
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #37 -
05/29/07 at 10:59:06
The oil pressure light tells you that the oil pump is pumping. It doesn't tell you if and when the oil is reaching the camshaft. Apparently on this machine that can be quite a delay.
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #38 -
05/29/07 at 11:10:21
Is there some kind of virus going around?
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borne2fly
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #39 -
05/29/07 at 11:10:41
barry68v10 ......
I like that auxiliary oil system you have. Excellent idea! I especially like that it pressurizes the entire engine
before
anything starts to rotate.
In the past I've rotated rebuilt engines to prime the oil system and have always pulled the spark plugs to unload the rod bearings until the pressure was up, but there was no way to unload the cam. It simply had to live with assembly lube until the oil got there, and that always bugged me. Some engines allow you to spin the oil pump all by itself, and that sort of mimmicks what your system does. Now that I think of it, maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to install an auxiliary electric oil pump that does the same thing. This is sounding better all the time. Hmmm.
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verslagen1
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #40 -
05/29/07 at 11:27:05
That pressure port is direct from the oil pump. Wouldn't you need to install a check valve for the oil to flow into the engine and tranny? Also would be a nice place to get extra volume.
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borne2fly
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #41 -
05/29/07 at 11:35:37
verslagen1 ....
Yes, I think a check valve would be required.
I was thinking of using an electric pump only momentarily to prime everything, but I don't see why it couldn't run all the time.
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barry68v10
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #42 -
05/29/07 at 11:43:22
The drawback of an extra oil pump is more moving parts and more expense for decreased reliability. All of the electric oil pumps I found that would be suitable cost $200+ and won't handle the abuse my system will handle. My system can easily be made for around $30-$50, and is proven to work nearly indefinitely. You can pre-pressurize my system if you want to. Just take out the standard air valve, fill with oil, replace valve and pressurize with a standard air pump. I can regulate pressure and the amount of oil that resides in the tank. An oil pump has several failure modes, a pressurized canister can only fail if it springs a leak but it experiences no wear except for the valve. I have an electric valve that allows flow into the tank anytime but only releases pressure when actuated. The only thing that's really needed is a manual ball-valve. The only real drawback of an air-pressurized system is over time, the air will disipate by infuzing thru the oil. Eventually all the air will be displaced with oil and the pressurizing effect stops. Therefore, everytime I change the oil, I completely purge the system of oil with an air pump.
Here's an example to look at to get the creative juices flowing:
http://www.atk-engines.com/oiler.pdf
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petc0ck mod, white spacer removed, 150 main jet, 12.5" shocks, 16" turnout muff, oil cooler mod, chain conversion, Tkat brace, external fuel filter, fuel screen removed...
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barry68v10
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #43 -
05/29/07 at 11:49:13
Quote:
Yes, I think a check valve would be required.
I've struggle with this issue myself and here's my conclusion...a check valve is a "nice-to-have" but not completely necessary. The electric check valve was the most expensive part of my system, and the least reliable, although more reliable than an electric pump. A ball-valve will work as long as you close it BEFORE engine shutdown. It's best to capture cool oil in a pressurized system to maximize oil pressure during startup, so you could open the valve, start the engine, then close the valve after 30 seconds to 5 minutes of operation. Then you're ready for the next start.
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petc0ck mod, white spacer removed, 150 main jet, 12.5" shocks, 16" turnout muff, oil cooler mod, chain conversion, Tkat brace, external fuel filter, fuel screen removed...
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barry68v10
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Re: Camshaft lubrication and long oil paths
Reply #44 -
05/29/07 at 11:55:31
Quote:
That pressure port is direct from the oil pump. Wouldn't you need to install a check valve for the oil to flow into the engine and tranny?
Verslagen, are you refering to the oil plug in the front bottom of the case? If so, yes it does come directly from the oil pump, and no I don't think you'd need to do much to ensure oil flows to the head. The oil pump is mechanically driven and will resist (not completely stop) oil flowing back thru it. This will require a little extra oil to flow to ensure oil to the head, but that's the same principle my system works on. After my RV has sat for a few months, it may take 30 seconds or so for the oil to completely pressurize the system, but my oil pressure gauge always reads 40 psi or greater before I crank it over. I'm tapped into my system right after the oil pump as well.
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petc0ck mod, white spacer removed, 150 main jet, 12.5" shocks, 16" turnout muff, oil cooler mod, chain conversion, Tkat brace, external fuel filter, fuel screen removed...
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