Been shopping for some front tires .....

Was struck by the strong difference between what front end tread designs have become over the years.  Was also struck by how much more expensive the modern high performance designs have become.

I have a thought or general theory to accomodate this long term change in tire designs.

Motorcycles did not have 100 hp engines in years past.  Rubber tire comounds used to be a good bit harder in years past.  The old hard rubber tread designs with the little hair-fine sub-grooves were intended to increase tread flex and provide conformance to the changing road conditions when using a harder rubber.  

Front tires were intended to grip and steer, not to carry very heavy braking loads as their primary duty.  This falls in line with old style front brakes not being as super strong as they are today.

A rib style front tire is the dead worst tire for a modern machine.  It may not be the worst thing out there for a Savage (but we do brake fairly hard and rib styles can't handle that sort of braking action without cupping).  

There is a generation in between rib tires and the soft grippy tires that might be optimum for our Savages -- these would be the all weather touring front tire designs as developed by Michelin and Metzler.

Dunlop 404 was the start of the soft grippy compound tires -- you lost all your sub-grooves and began the march of the wide simple groove styles.  I remember when these were new and were all the rage for the street rocket crowd.  I wore them front and back on my Yamahas and I wore them out every two years.  In my experience they worked very well but tended to wear the centers out too quickly due to their sharp apex form.  Good gripping tires though.

Now they are listed as "classics" and are getting phased out by the newer grippy designs.

Modern tire compounds are very soft and grippy -- they are not mechanically strong enough to allow (or need) the fine sub-grooves detailed tread designs of years past.  
They wear out FAST, too.

We don't require a high speed carcass construction -- we can't break the ton without a lot of work and modifications.  130 mph ratings are totally wasted on us.  Most of us don't even lean our bikes over very much (well, are your pegs ground up very much?  Mine aren't, really -- just a little bit.)

If you want to see the older hard rubber designs -- look at the old Dunlop designs and wince at the high cost.  Or look at Dunlop's most dedicated copier of their older designs -- Cheng Shen.  BTW, this Cheng Shen name brand is only used for the old Dunlop and Michelin/Metzler design copies any more, if you want a rip-off copy of a new design you may have to upgrade to Maxxis (Cheng Shen's upscale new brand name).

I was torn between a Dunlop 404 clone and a touring type Michelin/Metzler clone for my front tire.  I finally picked the higher priced touring clone because of the good all weather rating.  Dunlop 404s sometimes didn't care for heavy rain (lacked all the rain grooving and fine conformance sub-grooves that the touring tires have).

Now, I am assuming the tire compound will match the groove design -- if they screwed up and pressed the tire using soft modern comounds it will wear out just as fast as any other modern tire would.  If they stuck with the old harder rubber compounds I may get a tire that will last more than a single season or two.

I bought my 2002 LS last year with 400 miles on the odometer.  The IRCs were new looking and still had nibs once you left the straight up position.  Now my front tire is about at the legal wear limit and my rear is somewhat past that -- all in 5,350 miles.  
This sucks for tire life.

I had bikes that kept front tires for 3 years or more -- this level of 1-2 year tire wear that you guys simply accept as "normal" gives me the hives.  I dont' like changing tires all that much, really it isn't my favorite thing to do by a long shot.

Let's see if an old hard rubber "fine detail thread" designed front tire can give decent wet performance characteristics and still manage to live a good bit longer while doing so.


www.bikebandit.com/product/3412

<grin>

Oldfeller

My predecessors on the old fart side were touring riders and they rode BMWs and Gold Wings for hundreds of thousands of miles in all kinds of weather.  

I think they knew what they were doing.  I don't think they traded off too much wet weather handling for mileage, but I think they got their mileage out of their Michelins and Metzlers because in their game mileage counted.

Admittedly, I'm shopping for rip-offs of proven designs.  I just hope the copies are FAITHFUL copies, right down to the rubber used.

I've got a pair of Dunlop Max Cruiser rears that I bought when Sluggo spotted them on clearance at MAW.  I've now got a pair of BikeBandit fronts coming along with some tire irons and a spare tube for each end of the bike.

(me and tubes have a tire changing history, mostly bad)

Looking forward to wrassling that rear Max Cruiser on to the rim -- that is a firmly constructed tire and looks to be a good fight coming to get her on.

Fronts are so large a diameter they should be a piece of cake compared to the rear.

Have you priced a spoke wheel weight lately?  $10 to $15 dollars EACH !!!   Yikes !!!

Now that's a real rip-off.   I cast me some lead bullets of various sizes and I think a .44 or .45 caliber heavy slug that has a hole drilled down the center of it that is spoke sized and a counter bore in the base that is nipple sized combined with a kiss on the band saw to give you an entry path for the spoke to get into the middle of it sounds like about like free to me.  

Has more character, too.   More than a big salt water slider weight would have (that's another alternative source of inexpensive spoke weights, BTW)

Oldfeller


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PS   justin-o-guy -- I peeked at the current rip-off copies of old hard rubber constructed tires and what I found was distressing.  There is only ONE (1) old style hard rubber detail tread copy of a rear tire left in production that will fit our bikes at this point in time.  

Our 140x90-15 rear tire size is increasingly becoming a rarity in hard rubber style aftermarket tires.

 www.bikebandit.com/product/3424

Are you saying you can mount a 150x90-15 tire without side or top clearance problems?   Great!

Then you are back into the Maxxis tires at $88 a pop.  You are back into the much softer modern rubber compounds also.

Bet you the old style 140x90-15 Cheng Shen hard rubber fine detailed tread construction tire for $43 will outlast the $88 Maxxis even though the Maxxis is clearly the bigger wider taller tire.

(I'm betting it's made from a modern softer compound too)

Oldfeller

Just looked at the rear. 3,000 miles & on the wear bar. That's not very dang good. I guess I'll need to cough a little harder, dig a little deeper & get a tire that will hang a bit tougher, but still stick,,  What Metzler model is the sport touring?

I think Ill try to get a Cheng Shen Cheepo. If it wears like an eraser, so what? For that kind O $$$, if it makes 3,000 miles I will be tickled & if it's a piece O crap for traction, I'll run it a while & look for a better tire. No Big loss. I guess I'll spring for the longet tire bars, I dont want to spend 15 or 20 bucks to mount a 45 dollar tire. I think I better talk to my "dealer". They treat me good up there. Maybe if I buy the tire from him I can get a deal on mounting.

I dont care what sidewalls look like. I just want a tire that hangs in the corners, hauls the bike down with the brake & lasts long enough I feel like I got my $$'s worth. The Maxxiss was cheap, but not cheap enough I feel good about it goin away in 3.000 miles.
Who makes a 130-90-15 that does the job? I'm game for a different profile. The bike handles better( bunches) with the superbrace, but still wallows in long sweepers. The shocks are crap, we all know that, but I wonder how much that has to do with the aspect ratio of the tire (rear) & the wear it has oon it? The wear affects the aspect ratio, since the thing is shorter & then relatively wider, due to wear.. Right?

I don't see any problem with using the "old style" ribbed tread Cheng Shen on the front as Oldfeller suggests, but I'm a bit concerned about trying to use the 140/90-15 Cheng Shen I have for the back. Here's why: Deflated, it measures about 2-6mm wider and about 10-12mm shorter than the 140/90-15 Dunlop 404 on the rear of my other Savage.

Now, by width, that Dunlop just barely fits in there with a fender support bracket bolt removed. So... if the Cheng Chen doesn't grow in diameter, and get a bit more slim with inflation, it might rub, or drop my gearing a little bit; neither of which I want. It's gonna be a really close fit, if at all. Here's the JCW # of Cheng Chen I have: ZX621983A

I got the tire for practically nothing, and already tried to get a couple of local shops to give me even just a $20 trade in towards a Dunlop 404 for my brand NOS 2005 Cheng Chen w/ cardboard bands and plastic stickers still on it, and they aren't interested. So...I'm probably gonna give it a shot on the old '87.

I went to 3 shops looking for tire irons. The Hardley shop considers them a "specialty"item & doesnt stock them, the other 2 had them, but longest was 8 inches, so it was just a race for the $$ at that point. The shop I finally found, where the people are cool & they will order whatever I need & are even decent on the prices, has some LONG irons. I spose I'll just HAVe to pay them another visit. It's also very nice that they are just far enough away to make a decent ride out of it.. I wish you folks had such a place.