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Piston Group Buy (Read 48 times)
LesGolden
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #30 - 04/11/07 at 04:26:36
 
Also, does anyone know our stock cylinder wall thickness?  We just need to leave 2 or 3 mm for reliability.  I'm not sure what bore that would leave us with...  Although, with the increased interest in the 96's, maybe i should just leave well enough alone.  

I did talk to the local good mechanic, he didn't think 10:1 was high for pump gas, said he ran it just fine, never heard spark knock.  Course that was in his 1970some 750 Ducati...
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vroom1776
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #31 - 04/11/07 at 07:20:19
 
the new yamaha yzf-R1, their top of the line sport bikes, run12.7:1 CR on pump gas.  We'll be fine.  We may need a hotter (or cooler?) spark plug.  also, a great upgrade on this bike would be a bettter ignition coil.
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justin_o_guy
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #32 - 04/11/07 at 07:32:48
 
Okay, just IGGzaklee what is the cost for piston & rings? I would stick it on a shelf & wait till I need( or have the $$ to do it anyway) a top end job. I would so enjoy finishing this thing out with a head porting, single walled header, bored out & compression jacked a bit. I'll bet that would run. That would just have to surprise a few folks.

WHO has the cylinder coating? Is that Lancer? Did the folks who did the coating bore it out, too? & How much $$$ was that little enterprize?

I still think going to a chain may be necessary or at least very desirable after this kind of work. With the added power, staying geared so low that the highway wrings it out so bad is kinda crazy. Specially when $200.00 will solve it.
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smokin_blue
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #33 - 04/11/07 at 10:20:37
 
Just a couple of opinions on 10:1 and higher.

My concern personally on the 10:1 or higher comes from the fact that this is a very basic flat top piston design with I am guessing a pretty basic combustion chamber design and more importantly an almost 4" bore with single spark plug.   I doubt suzuki engineers put much time into trying to build a high swirl fast burning combustion design head on this thing.

The bikes you are comparing to are both very highly advanced in their design to run at that compression and also have much smaller bore sizes (not to mention fuel injection on the yamaha)

The issue is that with an almost 4" bore you have a huge distance that burn front has to travel.  Now you up the octane to prevent detonation and you slow down the burn rate. (wrong direction!) Now you risk not having a complete burn.  You can also retard the timing to avoid detonation and you are starting your burn later...again risking incomplete burn.  

If you are going to push too high you had better be ready to mod the head for a dual spark head also. Doesn't  look easy from this one.

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Reelthing
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #34 - 04/11/07 at 12:53:32
 
it's a full open chamber hemi head design.
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LesGolden
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #35 - 04/11/07 at 15:08:29
 
The newer high compression bikes usually have variable timing and knock sensors to avoid detonation, thats how they can run 12:1 and higher, well, that or race gas.  10:1 is fairly reliable with pump gas without advanced technology.  Much higher than that is not.  While 9.5 gives an extra bit of reassurance that your not going to get ping, 10:1 is not over the limit.   It is pretty much right at it though.   And the higher compression just increases efficiency of burn, which increases cylinder pressure and therefore horsepower.  The increased pressure does increase heat, but this is still related to the total horsepower, which will not be that high.  I do think we would need to monitor temperature, and see if we need to add an oil cooler, (can the stock oil pump be replaced with higher flow?), but I don't think we would have unsolvable problems with 10:1.  It seems like there is enough interest in the 9.5 to get 4 people, Vroom, maybe we can each buy two of the higher compression, if they work well without serious side effects we could probably sell the extra ones on here...  I'm willing to try it.

Bore Tech is the company that does the carbide coating, they charge 60 for the bore hone job, and 115 for coating.  You can contact them on their page, i'm not sure how much shipping costs would be...  I actually found a guy locally that will bore mine for me so i probably won't do the coating this time, maybe when i resleave...
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LesGolden
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #36 - 04/11/07 at 15:09:55
 
Oh and yeah, i'm gonna go to the chain too.  I wanna try the 14-45 combination, doubt i'll leave it that way, but i'd like to try it.  Grin
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wvhunter62
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #37 - 04/11/07 at 20:07:10
 
9.5:1  or 10:1 not much difference both will do fine on pump gas. When do we buy? 96mm or 97mm will also be fine. I am ready to build. Do we have all of the info we need yet? Do we have 4 people commited yet? This reply sounds kinda rough, not really, I am just itchin' to build, I've always been kinda impatient. Tongue Did we ever get a final price? I've been on the road the past few days, just tryin' to get caught up.
                                                    Tim
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LANCER
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #38 - 04/11/07 at 20:31:08
 
I have been traveling for 2 weeks and have missed out on a lot of this.  Has someone done a precise measure to ensure the deck height, piston to valve clearance, etc is absolutely correct yet?
I have a strong interest in the hi-comp pistons and would rather do that than cut metal from the cyl.
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smokin_blue
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #39 - 04/12/07 at 03:25:35
 
I am on the fence since I haven't started the build but if we can keep it under $150 I would probably be game....don't count me out yet.

I think it might be time for an all call again listing the proposed specs and costs.
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LesGolden
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #40 - 04/12/07 at 05:04:37
 
It's starting to look like we will need the valve pockets cut out, that will bring the price right up to about 150, i'd have to look to get the exact price but 150 isn't more than 10 off either way.  If we get 20 people together the price drops 15 bucks each i think.  I'm fine with 9.5 or 10, i agree that we'll be fine on pump either way, and i guess i don't have to have the extra half point...  I'd like to do the 97mm, but a quick cylinder wal thickness measurement would cement that for me.  I'm sure we can get together 4 people, it seems like we could get a couple groups of 4 if we want to order a couple different pistons, Lancer maybe you could get a few to go 9.5 95mm so you don't have to rebore, and then a few of us could go 97mm and 10:1?  I'm thinking too, if we order for the 4mm deck height with the .03 clearance to the valves we'll be fine even if it turns out to be the 8mm clearance, it would just be more expensive because of the valve pockets.  I haven't broken into this motor yet and i can't find the figures for deck height or valve opening anywhere.  If anyone has sure measurements it would sure help.  I suppose i could just open my motor up, but 3 weeks or so to get the pistons with no scoot, i dunno if i can take it....
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You just gotta take the high road
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justin_o_guy
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #41 - 04/12/07 at 06:09:45
 
I really dont see you being grounded over the cost of a head gasket & the labor to reassemb;e the top end. You like riding way too much. If the deck height is that important( & I am gonna have to expect it is) And you be ramrodding this drive for pistons( & I kinda think you are) seems ya just might have to check that issue out before any pistons are bought. I think the notion has already been chewing in yer head.
I appreciate all the groundbreaking work you are doing.
With this mod, & a chain, like Hutch & Ohh, heck I am sorry I fergot that other fellows name, have done, this bike will be a real surprise for a bunch of folks. My daughter will love it. Looks like she is in line for being it's new owner. Imagine someone weighing 120 on a bored & compression increased 650 with a Supertrapp. Thing otta take off like mad.. Lets hope.
Les, thanks for doing the homework. I wont be able to swing $150.00 till the first O next month.Well,, the third, actually.
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Rockin_John
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #42 - 04/12/07 at 11:06:53
 
Numbers. This discussion is sorely in need of some hard data on several counts. You can only do the math if you have the numbers! Do we have ANY of these measurements we need: Cylinder head volume; Deck height & Head gasket thickness (what would be a squish band, if not discussing a Hemi as opposed to a flat-top cylinder design). Once given these data, and then the bore size is chosen, the compression ratio can be calculated.

Being a Hemi chamber, the easiest way I know to measure the volume would be to measure by liquid displacement: Fill the head's chamber level with oil, then measure the volume of oil removed from the chamber. A reasonably accurate measurement can be achived by drawing the fluid out with a very large syringe like a veteranarian uses on large animals:



I took a picture of the biggest syringe I have, but I don't think it would be big enough to measure the Savage's cylinder head chamber volume. Using an estimated squish area, and compression ratio, I *guesstimate* that we are looking at a total chamber size in the area of 45cc (head chamber area + deck squish area + gasket thickness area). Maybe a 35cc syringe would be big enough to measure head volume, since much of my estimated 45cc total is from the squish and gasket areas. The volume of any relief pockets in piston tops for valve clearance would need to be included (subtracted) in measurements too. At the sizes we are talking about, even one CC is signifigant to the calculations.

Remember, as someone previously mentioned, just an overbore causes a compression ratio change, as you are then squeezing more cc of fuel/air into an area where the cylinder head displacement has not changed (although the squish area has). All this can be calculated too, but again, it requires hard data (measurements) or at least estimates.

Another nasty little issue someone brought up: Heat. That is the killer, and where the deal starts to go south if you get too power greedy. Hence my hesitation to buy into a deal of maximum bore AND compression ratio. You can toss  around talk about what might be a safe compression ratio all day, and it doesn't mean squat, unless you also consider how far the cylinder has been punched out. Both of which are going to raise the engine temp. and though I live within a couple of miles of a drag strip, an engine which will only run a few minutes before overheating is of little interest to me. Also, while I'm interested in eventually adding an oil cooler, I don't want any piston/cylinder/head issues dictating an oil cooler as a necessity for my engine's survival on the street.

So... here is my opinion, and what will keep me interested in pulling my wallet out to the tune of $150 neighborhood: Keep the numbers reasonable on this first attempt. Either go for the big CC and a small CR boost, like 97mm @ 9.5:1 ... OR ... go conservitive on the CC and still keep the CR reasonable, like 95-96mm @ 10:1. As I stated earlier, if it were entirely up to me, I would go short on both and do 96mm @ 9.5:1 and see how that worked before throwing more money into the venture.

I would hope those numbers would be safe on premium pump gas, but honestly I think even those conservitive numbers are a risk. I personally wouldn't care to press it any farther on a first try.

Nobody will mistake me for Capt. Kirk and "Boldly going where no man has gone before." Wink  All I want to do is sneak up on a few horsepower here and there. My ideal end game would be to reach the infamous one H.P./C.I. performance benchmark, without losing the beloved bottom end torque. I'm thinking 40-45 H.P. should be attainable without serious reliability issues. Maybe as much as 50. By then I'd expect the beginning of some serious trade-off in durability.

Ya got my 2¢ again  Grin
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LesGolden
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #43 - 04/12/07 at 18:58:31
 
Those 2cents add up! I agree with everything your saying here, i suppose i need to accept that i'm digging in the motor.. soon as i get the new cam and carb i'll open it and get the numbers.  I'll post them when i have them.  I want to keep our cylinder wall thickness in the safer range.  I assumed with there being kits to 97mm that that left plenty of room, but with more pressure to contain we should have extra insurance, so i'll check out the walls, wonder if we'd get more from a half point compression or 1mm to the bore..  barry68v10 provided this neat link on the other piston discussion.

NOT2FAST: Turbo Calculator

Edit:  Fixed the YABB code to display a link that fits on the screen.
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You just gotta take the high road
Leave old lovers on the low
Raise your face and smile baby
There's somewhere you gonna go...
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Reelthing
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Re: Piston Group Buy
Reply #44 - 04/12/07 at 19:11:03
 
97mm piston is the max offered by westco - for me I want to stay away from the max - line up on 96mm. So far as compression goes - our gas sucks thats all there is to that -  9.5:1 is all I want to push the "93" pump junk reformulated stuff.

96mm/9.5:1 I'll take two.
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