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belt vs chain (Read 37 times)
allan
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #30 - 12/17/06 at 10:16:07
 
I have an  ls 400 which as standard is chain drive, tops about 75, Shocked
when the sprocket got worn (hooked teeth) Sad I took them off and went round the breakers got what i needed of a gs550, these have since been replaced with new sprockets from the above model, make sure u get the spacer from behind front sprocket to keep everything lined up Cheesy. if you want to play about have a look at the gt750/gs850 as they have diffrent sizes ???
Doing a full engine build over next few weeks if any body intrested on 650 motor ,
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Hutch
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #31 - 12/17/06 at 16:25:17
 
barry68v10
       Even at 500rpm less, the piston would be going through its cycle 30,000 less times in one hour, at the same speed. Extended engine life? Definately. I don't know if everybody drives like the people in MI., but the posted speed on the interstate is 70mph. Actual speed averages70in the slow lane, 75 in the center, and 80+ in the fast lane. If you pull out to pass a semi that is covering you with sand from his load, you better have a big hole in the center lane, or you will have a car up your butt in no time.
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Kropatchek
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #32 - 12/18/06 at 03:16:58
 
Allan wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:12:
Doing a full engine build over next few weeks if any body intrested on 650 motor ,


Sure, interested in engine rebuild. Pls make a new post and lots of pictures, thanks

Greetz
Kropatchek Grin
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allan
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #33 - 12/18/06 at 12:11:18
 
no problem with the pictures just not sure how to load them , sure some nice person will help Roll Eyes

this also explains why no bike pics Undecided
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barry68v10
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #34 - 12/18/06 at 13:24:57
 
Quote:
barry68v10
  Even at 500rpm less, the piston would be going through its cycle 30,000 less times in one hour, at the same speed. Extended engine life? Definately.


Hutch, you might be right about overall extended engine life, but some parts will actually wear faster.   More RPMs will decrease stress on some parts.  Follow the theory:  If you're riding 60 MPH, the engine has to generate, let's say, 10 HP to maintain that speed regardless of RPM.  Therefore, since the power output is "set", more RPMs means less engine stress on each stroke since HP = Torque x RPM x f (f= a constant I don't want to deal with now for purposes of discussion).  Therefore, if HP is constant and RPM goes down, Torque must increase accordingly.  Increased torque = higher engine stress/wear on some parts.

This is the reason why many of our escort fighter planes in WWII crashed in the ocean.  Designers wanted higher engine RPMs in order to decrease stress on certain engine components, but the increased RPMs caused fighters to run out of gas before they could get home due to decrease fuel economy.  The end result was to increase prop pitch and decrease RPMs to increase fuel economy.  The engine designer recommended more frequent engine mnx as a result.  This example doesn't hold 100% now because of improved manufacturing processes, material strength and consistency and FAR better lubrication, but the basic concept still holds true.

Bottom line:  in the long run I agree, I want less RPMs on my thumper.   Grin
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phasender
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Re:  ;DRe: belt vs chain
Reply #35 - 12/18/06 at 21:38:03
 
Beeswax? I'm a noob. I've got a 97. Is this something I should be doing on a regular basis? Do I put it on the outside, or on *shudder* the teeth? Where do you find bees wax, aside from frilly specialty candle shops?

Stimpy - FSO wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:
Yes, but you must be talking about "other" evil belt systems.

The one the savage has is pretty much maintenance-free* and, from what I keep hearing, bullet proof.


I like it because of the feel (bike feels like shaft-driven) and no oil/lube mess anywhere, including pants and jacket  Grin
...But then again, the flexibility of playing around with the rear sprocket size just for kicks would be great, cause there is just so-much-torque in this thing.

(*Just check tension, must twist 90°, and apply beeswax once in a while). Anyway, just my 2 cents on the subject.

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cigaro
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #36 - 12/19/06 at 12:14:46
 
Belts have some distinct advantages, but one advantage with a chain is the ability to experiment with sprocket sizes. Some people swear by the advantage of, say, going to a 16 or 17 tooth sprocket, claiming it really gives new power to the bike. Good luck with your conversion and let us know how it goes and what tooth sprockets you end up using.
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #37 - 12/19/06 at 23:23:20
 
cigaro wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:12:
Belts have some distinct advantages, but one advantage with a chain is the ability to experiment with sprocket sizes. Some people swear by the advantage of, say, going to a 16 or 17 tooth sprocket, claiming it really gives new power to the bike. Good luck with your conversion and let us know how it goes and what tooth sprockets you end up using.



No doubt about it, you can make a drastic change in a bike with sprocket changes. Of course I haven't done it with a Savage, but I decided to ride my '70s Yamaha DT-250 Enduro mostly on the street in the late 70's.

I took the rear sproket down a few teeth and the front up a tooth. At the same time I changed the tires to the most street-like trail tires I could find and replaced the chain.

Only problem: I had to rebuild the clutch pack the next week when it started slipping. Good news: Top speed on the little 250cc went from screaming red-line at 75mph to tolerable at 85mph. Crusing at 65mph on the expressway was suddenly a comfortable drone (by previous comparison).  

I'd expect good results on the top speed of a Savage, Either 4-speed or 5-speed, but the bottom (first gear) being so high concerns me. My old Yamaha had a very wide ratio transmission which made the change acceptable. I'm afraid that Suzuki has kind of screwed us with such a close ratio tranny, that a great top gear will result in a crappy first gear.

We really need a lab rat too try this out, or other guys from other forums, who have made the modification, to come and tell us what might be expected.

I know there are a lot of Savages out there already converted, I've got pictures of them!
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Hutch
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #38 - 12/23/06 at 10:04:58
 
For anybody out there that is thinking of going to chain to decrease rpm and increase top speed, here are some figures.The German conversion kit has a 17 front and 50 rear giving a final ratio of 2.94. Basically this is just a switch to chain with barley any gear change(stock is 2.96). I believe the Germans went with the 17 for clearance issues with the engine case(more room). One must keep in mind that for every % change in gear three areas will be affected. Any reduction of the ratio will, decrease acceleration, decrease RPM, and increase top speed by the same %. For example, if you went with a 48 tooth rear you would have a 4.5% decrease in acceleration(from stock belt), a 293RPM decrease at cruising speed, and a 3.78 mph increase at 6500rpm. The final ratio is 2.82. Going to a 47 tooth rear would give you a 6.5% decrease in acceleration, a 493RPM decrease at cruising speed and a 5.9mph increase at 6500rpm. The final ratio would be 2.76. Figuring that the manual says the top speed is 85mph, you now have atop speed of 90.5mph. Of course we have all done some mods to increase performance so that can be added to the picture. I myself would not lower the ratio any more than to the 2.76 because of the added strain to the clutch. Shimming the clutch springs or going to heavier ones(if they are available) would help in this area, but will increase lever pull. This does not bother me because I only use the clutch to engage first and to stop at intersections, and shift by rpm the rest of the time. I run solo,only weigh 175, and do not run bags and extra gear(weight). I also do not drag race like I use to so the slower acceleration would not bother me as long as I can cruise the interstate at a lower RPM. The acceleration would be very close to the early 4 speed, with the 5th gear being a cruise gear. If stock Suzuki gears from another machine could be used as is suggested, that would probably be more cost effective than the German kit. Thank you to Rockin_John, Smokin_Blue, and anyone elses posts that I picked through to get these final figures.
RIDE SAFE
        Hutch
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smokin_blue
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #39 - 01/07/07 at 05:09:41
 
Hutch, can you tell us what do you get in the German Kit, how much is it, and what brand or where to see more info on it?  I am really not interested in buying one but I am curious how much it is because I really don't think it would take much to put such a kit together here in the States.

Thanks!
PS: did you ever order it?  If so any feed back on it would be great.




Hutch wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:11:
I am new to this site but not to riding, 40+ years,and a lot of different bikes. Ossa, Montessa, Bultaco, Laverda , Bsa. Triumph, Harleys you get the idea. I have recently
bought a 2006 Savage. love the bike. Gobs of torque, light, nimble and plenty of acceleration to 75, ask the Harley owners  who I smoke. Now here is where I will open a can of worms. I do not like belts!! Belts do need maintainance. Proper tension, they will jump. The pulleys must be in perfect alignment or they start to look like an Angora cat, and wosrt of all when they do brake 200 miles from home on a Sunday(don't ask) you will not fix it on the side of the road, unless you have been wearing a spare like a hula hoop. I prefer a half link, hole link, master link hanging on my key chain. Go retrieve your chain and put it back on with very little work and a small chain breaking tool. No removing guards and covers or bottom shock bolts. PJ1 makes a chain lube called Blue Label that when used sparingly once a month will not fly off all over the bike. After the
Christmas Holiday finishes killing me I will be ordering
the chain conversion from Germany. Very reasonable price for piece of mind. Plus any good machinest can make you a sprocket with more or less teeth once he has the pattern. As far as noise, who can here it over
their free flow exhaust any way? Just my opinion. Let
the replies fly.

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Hutch
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #40 - 01/07/07 at 08:14:11
 
smokin-blue,
  I have noy ordered the German kit , cause like you I would like to see if it could be done with other model parts. The last price I saw at the sight was $265+ shipping which would be pretty high from Germany I imagine. The kit consists of front and rear sprockets and a o-ring chain. The gear ratio is almost identical to the belt drive, so there would be no change in performance, which is why I would like to try other model sprockets if it is possible. Someone said GS550 sprockets will work but I haven't checked it out yet because I have just finished relocating my regulator, fabbed up a new side plate mount, and finished making my jockey shift along side the tank. The nearest Suzi dealer is 50 miles away so I don't go until I need a few things(fixed income sucks) Now that most of my tinkering is done I will probably get off my duff and see what I can come up with. I'll let you know. If you come up with something, would you let me know? Thanks!!!
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smokin_blue
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #41 - 01/07/07 at 11:26:31
 
Hutch,
I have a '97 sitting in my garrage along with a GS550 both of which where bought for parts to build my cafe bike.  I hope to start full into this project in about 2 months.  From the measurements I have taken I do believe I have and can confirm which suzuki sprockets fit and what would be needed for spacers.  The kit and parts really should not be too bad to create.

Regards,
Smokin Blue
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Hutch
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #42 - 01/07/07 at 13:39:22
 
smokin_blue,
   I know anything is possible if you try long enough. Heck I took a Oliver bulldozer, put a International motor in it, hooked it to the Oliver trans with a homemade trans shaft and used a Chevy Vega hydraulic clutch to make it work. I still use it to groom my sons motocross track. The whole time everybody at the dealers said "NO WAY IT WILL WORK" Where there is a will there is a way I always say. Sounds like your time table is about like mine. No heat in the garage, so I try to do the small things in my living room in the winter. Once it's warm I can get my teeth into this sprocket thing. Keep in touch and I'll do the same. Thanks!!!
      Hutch
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #43 - 05/02/07 at 08:18:32
 
My only other belt was on a Honda 350/4 in the mid-80's and I liked it a lot.  The Savage's belt is much stouter that that one was.  All of my experience otherwise has been older-style chains.  I've never used any of the newer types at all.  I really enjoy reading everyone's opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of each.  At this point, I am keeping a spare belt and going with that on my Savage (it's just so simple on this bike) but I will definitely be interested to hear more from folks regarding their experiences with chain conversions on the LS650.
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Re: belt vs chain
Reply #44 - 05/02/07 at 14:17:50
 
Don't think that we need that other topic anymore, Rob...too many on this subject...

I've still got a few hundred to invest in my engine, but the chain conversion is installed anyway...I like the look.  Just as retro as the Savage really is Tongue

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