SuzukiSavage.com - Oil cooler install update

barry68v10 Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 955 Maryland Gender:	Re: Oil cooler install update Reply #15 - 03/15/07 at 14:54:54 Greg, Ed is where I got the idea to tap into the top of the filter housing. My setup will be very similar to his. So Ed, you think MOST of the oil flows thru the cooler?
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Ed L.

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #16 - 03/15/07 at 15:10:05

I'd guesss about half the oil flows thru the cooler once everything gets warm. I'm only using a 3/8 ID line which restricts the flow a little bit. The internal lines in the block are about the same size so I'm guessing the flow splits 50/50. Here's a picture of the complete cooler before a shot of rattlecan black paint
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/654677/

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #17 - 03/16/07 at 05:55:35

Ed L. wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

I'd guesss about half the oil flows thru the cooler once everything gets warm. I'm only using a 3/8 ID line which restricts the flow a little bit. The internal lines in the block are about the same size so I'm guessing the flow splits 50/50. Here's a picture of the complete cooler before a shot of rattlecan black paint
http://www.bikepics.com/pictures/654677/

I really hope that you won't mind my input...

Not trying to be critical, but I'm almost wondering if your flow is even 50/50. Truth is that I really like the idea and that cooler really has a nice look on the front like that.

The reason that I wonder about the flow is that the stock oil passage is relatively short from the pump to the filter, there are only 2 changes in direction (90 deg) and the diameter is constant. In that distance, I'll bet there is only a small drop in pressure (pump to filter). Follow me?

Now with the cooler, you have additional direction changes in flow through the fittings, plus all the internal "zig-zag" passages, and possibly a reduction in the diameter too. All of these add a resistance to flow.

So, what I imagine could happen is that you have just about the same oil pressure at both the inlet and outlet hose going to the cooler, and since the oil is gonna follow the path of least resistance, that once the air is purged from the cooler the oil flow is going to essentially "dead-head" and stop.

Now, I'm not trying to be a PITA, but I do think that unless you redirect or restrict the oil flow in the stock passages, you really will have no flow through the cooler.

I hope that you don't mind, ...I just think that your great installation idea might just need a little bit more tweaking before you'll get any benefit from it. Just need a little way to force the oil to go through the cooler.

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LANCER

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #18 - 03/16/07 at 06:13:04

Was there an oil temp or cyl head temp on the engine taken before and after the cooler was installed? If so, that would provide some hard data whether the cooler was functioning as designed.
It would be good if the next person to do the install had a cyl head or oil temp temp guage and a pressure guage inline with the cooler. Both can be used for before and after comparisons.

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #19 - 03/16/07 at 06:45:29

Savage_Greg wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

I really hope that you won't mind my input...

Not trying to be critical, but I'm almost wondering if your flow is even 50/50. Truth is that I really like the idea and that cooler really has a nice look on the front like that.

the air cooled vws, used a parallel oil cooler, very similar to the set up here. they added a spring loaded plunger, that reacted with oil psi, to effect a cooler bypass during hi-psi (engine cold) nearly full by-pass , mid-psi (engine warm) partial by-pass, which is what ed & barry have, lo-psi (engine hot) no by-pass. the combination of oil psi and oil volume will send oil every where it can, some more than others, perhaps. as was mentioned, the oil cooler input/output temps change with engine temp, i dont think convection would do that, try grabbing a heater hose on a car, that has the heater turned off, then again with water circulating.

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Ed L.

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #20 - 03/16/07 at 07:32:57

I've been thru all this before which is why I tend not to talk much about the design. If there is no flow thru the cooler then why does it get too hot to touch after 20 miles? During warmup the cooler goes from hot at the inlet to warm at the outlet which proves that there is a good amount of flow thru it. I'm only guessing at a 50/50 split, it might be more like 2/3 thru the engine, 1/3 thru the cooler, either way it works. As I said before it would be easy enough to block the passage to get full flow thru the cooler, I just didn't see the need for it. If you don't like the design then don't do it to your bike, if you've got something better then go ahead and do it, it's a free world!!!

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Savage_Greg

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #21 - 03/16/07 at 08:20:57

Ed L. wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

I've been thru all this before which is why I tend not to talk much about the design. If there is no flow thru the cooler then why does it get too hot to touch after 20 miles? During warmup the cooler goes from hot at the inlet to warm at the outlet which proves that there is a good amount of flow thru it. I'm only guessing at a 50/50 split, it might be more like 2/3 thru the engine, 1/3 thru the cooler, either way it works. As I said before it would be easy enough to block the passage to get full flow thru the cooler, I just didn't see the need for it. If you don't like the design then don't do it to your bike, if you've got something better then go ahead and do it, it's a free world!!!

Don't be defensive. Not trying to stir the pot, but just trying to help the design. There might be temp changes, but the bottom line is how much flow? And how to get the most out of it...

As is, I imagine that you get some flow, but on the other hand if you create any restrictions to divert the oil you have to be careful not to cause any significant pressure losses before the oil gets to the filter, bottom end and other engine parts.

As well, just because the outlet is cooler than the inlet doesn't necessarily mean efficiency. It could mean lower flow too. The inlet side is through a 1/8" pipe fitting? That is a reduction of how much from the oil passage?

Just offering food for thought. Either way, I think the idea is great.

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justin_o_guy Ex Member	Re: Oil cooler install update Reply #22 - 03/16/07 at 11:38:26 Flow can be determined quickly by putting a section of clear tubing in line with the discharge end of the cooler. Then the oil coming out can be seen. Once the flow is determined the clear tube removed.
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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #23 - 03/16/07 at 12:58:08

Didn't mean to take a snap, just am having a bad day and over reacted a bit. I am planning to close off the internal passage next oil change to divert all the flow to the cooler. Also need to change over to tubing that has a stronger sidewall so it doesn't squish down going around bends which is where most of the flow is lost. The entire design was an experiment just to see if it was possible and soo far it has worked better than expected. Running a thermostat and three way valve would be cool but a but of overkill. Really can't see the need for it except during real cold weather or short trips, beside that the engine generates plenty of heat so a cooler will be an advantage almost all of the time. A thermostat and small electric cooling fan would really help when stuck in traffic. Even with the cooler the engine still get hot with stop n go traffic.

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #24 - 03/16/07 at 13:58:16

Ed L. wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

Didn't mean to take a snap, just am having a bad day and over reacted a bit. I am planning to close off the internal passage next oil change to divert all the flow to the cooler. Also need to change over to tubing that has a stronger sidewall so it doesn't squish down going around bends which is where most of the flow is lost. The entire design was an experiment just to see if it was possible and soo far it has worked better than expected. Running a thermostat and three way valve would be cool but a but of overkill. Really can't see the need for it except during real cold weather or short trips, beside that the engine generates plenty of heat so a cooler will be an advantage almost all of the time. A thermostat and small electric cooling fan would really help when stuck in traffic. Even with the cooler the engine still get hot with stop n go traffic.

Of course, I've been watching this topic and just waiting to see how it was going...

I've thought about this, and if you don't mind I have some other thoughts...it simple concerns flow and pressures, and as we know from some past thread, the Savage oil pump is kinda low performance anyway.

I was just thinking about pressures as I used to do on the job, and in some ways you can also compare this kind of thing to electrical circuits. With that, think about the oil pressure as voltage and each fitting, change in direction, or reducer as a resistance or a load.

The first comparison is the way you have it now...it's like a parallel circuit. The line with the highest resistance will have the highest voltage drop (the cooler). The line with the lowest resistance will have the lowest voltage drop (the stock passage). Therefore you'll have more flow through the stock oil passage, and less through the cooler.

Now on the other hand, if you eliminate the stock oil setup and run all of the oil through the cooler it will become a series circuit. With each fitting you'll have a pressure drop and a loss in flow. Every 90 deg turn will take a bit more....on and on it will subtract until it gets to the filter compartment.

So to really do it...in my way of thinking...is that you have to have larger lines and capacity through every bit of the cooler setup. The velocity of the oil will slow in the larger lines and cool better and when it goes into the filter the pressure will be higher.

I'm just concerned with the final delivery pressure to the rest of the engine....as shown here...

Now, of course, I know that you can see what you have and know better than I, but what got my attention was the 1/8" pipe fitting that your cooler connects to. I know that you did that to adapt it to the engine, but what if it lowers your oil pressure to the crankshaft?

What you have now is safe for the engine, but I'd be worried about isolating the flow through the cooler at this point.

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #25 - 03/16/07 at 14:24:09

Greg, that's pretty much my thoughts on it also, I compare hydralic flow to electricity a lot and having the cooler in parallel allows flow to pick it's own path, some thru the cooler the rest thru the engine which is the best of both worlds. When I put the system together I used fittings with 3/8 ID which matches the pathways in the engine. Even with all the twists and elbows I don't expect any major pressure drops thru the system. I'll install a couple tees with gauges first to check for any pressure drop.

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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: Oil cooler install update Reply #26 - 03/16/07 at 14:32:28 Ed L. wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03: I'll install a couple tees with gauges first to check for any pressure drop. There you go. Now we're getting technically inclined
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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #27 - 03/16/07 at 18:17:38

Greg, my motivation for installing the cooler the way I have it designed is two-fold:

1) You absolutely will have some flow thru the cooler regardless of tube size simply because of the pressure differential. Therefore, you will get some cooling benefit and that benefit will increase with increased oil temperature and therefore lower viscosity.

2) You SHOULD get more oil flow to the head because of less overall restriction of oil flow from the pump to the filter housing. This should improve lubrication to the top of the cylinder head which is the weak link from a lube standpoint.

I've thought about several different designs, and settled on this one for the benefits with a severe limitation on detractors, i.e. no matter what, oil flow to top will NOT DECREASE. The main question in my mind can only be cleared up by actual test data, which I intend to provide once my setup is complete.

I thought about the clear tubing option, but not a big fan of that option due to limited tube strength. Like the temp gauge route but must be careful to test in same conditions. Another route is to measure actual heat carried from oil cooler with a given oil temp, which would be the best way to determine efficiency. Just not sure how I'd set up a test of the last case ???

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #28 - 03/16/07 at 19:13:52

[quote author=barry68v10 link=board=RubberSideDown;num=1162649522;start=25#27 date=03/16/07 at 18:17:38]Greg, my motivation for installing the cooler the way I have it designed is two-fold:

1) You absolutely will have some flow thru the cooler regardless of tube size simply because of the pressure differential. endquote.. to a point because at the front port its a straight shot to the cooler lines from the pump..
id say the top of the cooler should be lower than any upper head oil passages...

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barry68v10

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Re: Oil cooler install update
Reply #29 - 03/16/07 at 19:39:04

Quote:

id say the top of the cooler should be lower than any upper head oil passages...

True if there's no oil in the cooler, not true if the cooler is completely filled with oil.

Case in point: you can siphon water thru a tube that travels up first as long as:

1) the tube is filled with liquid
2) the exit point is lower than the intake

So this is only a factor after install on initial startup provided theres enough oil pressure to provide an initial fill...

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